监视资本主义：智能陷阱 The Social Dilemma(2020)(EN)Subtitles
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1 00:00:15 [eerie instrumental music playing]
2 00:00:31 [interviewer] Why don't you go ahead?Sit down and see if you can get comfy.
3 00:00:37 -You good? All right.-Yeah. [exhales]
4 00:00:39 -[interviewer] Um...-[cell phone vibrates]
5 00:00:43 [crew member] Take one, marker.
6 00:00:46 [interviewer] Wanna startby introducing yourself?
7 00:00:48 [crew member coughs]
8 00:00:50 Hello, world. Bailey. Take three.
9 00:00:53 -[interviewer] You good?-This is the worst part, man.
10 00:00:56 [chuckling] I don't like this.
11 00:00:59 I worked at Facebook in 2011 and 2012.
12 00:01:02 I was one of the really early employeesat Instagram.
13 00:01:05 [man 1] I worked at, uh, Google,uh, YouTube.
14 00:01:08 [woman] Apple, Google, Twitter, Palm.
15 00:01:12 I helped start Mozilla Labsand switched over to the Firefox side.
16 00:01:15 -[interviewer] Are we rolling? Everybody?-[crew members reply]
17 00:01:18 [interviewer] Great.
18 00:01:21 [man 2] I worked at Twitter.
19 00:01:23 My last job there
20 00:01:24 was the senior vice presidentof engineering.
21 00:01:27 -[man 3] I was the president of Pinterest.-[sips]
22 00:01:29 Before that, um,I was the... the director of monetization
23 00:01:32 at Facebook for five years.
24 00:01:34 While at Twitter, I spent a numberof years running their developer platform,
25 00:01:38 and then I becamehead of consumer product.
26 00:01:40 I was the coinventor of Google Drive,Gmail Chat,
27 00:01:44 Facebook Pages,and the Facebook like button.
28 00:01:47 Yeah. This is... This is why I spent,like, eight months
29 00:01:50 talking back and forth with lawyers.
30 00:01:54 This freaks me out.
31 00:01:58 [man 2] When I was there,
32 00:01:59 I always felt like,fundamentally, it was a force for good.
33 00:02:03 I don't know if I feel that way anymore.
34 00:02:05 I left Google in June 2017, uh,due to ethical concerns.
35 00:02:10 And... And not just at Googlebut within the industry at large.
36 00:02:14 I'm very concerned.
37 00:02:16 I'm very concerned.
38 00:02:19 It's easy today to lose sight of the fact
39 00:02:21 that these tools actually have createdsome wonderful things in the world.
40 00:02:27 They've reunited lost family members.They've found organ donors.
41 00:02:32 I mean, there were meaningful,systemic changes happening
42 00:02:36 around the worldbecause of these platforms
43 00:02:39 that were positive!
44 00:02:40 I think we were naiveabout the flip side of that coin.
45 00:02:45 Yeah, these things, you release them,and they take on a life of their own.
46 00:02:48 And how they're used is pretty differentthan how you expected.
47 00:02:52 Nobody, I deeply believe,ever intended any of these consequences.
48 00:02:56 There's no one bad guy.No. Absolutely not.
49 00:03:01 [interviewer] So, then,what's the... what's the problem?
50 00:03:09 [interviewer] Is there a problem,and what is the problem?
51 00:03:12 [swallows]
52 00:03:17 [clicks tongue] Yeah, it is hardto give a single, succinct...
53 00:03:20 I'm trying to touch onmany different problems.
54 00:03:22 [interviewer] What is the problem?
55 00:03:24 [clicks tongue, chuckles]
56 00:03:27 [birds singing]
57 00:03:31 [dog barking in distance]
58 00:03:33 [reporter 1]Despite facing mounting criticism,
59 00:03:35 the so-called Big Tech namesare getting bigger.
60 00:03:37 The entire tech industry isunder a new level of scrutiny.
61 00:03:41 And a new study sheds light on the link
62 00:03:43 between mental healthand social media use.
63 00:03:46 [on TV]Here to talk about the latest research...
64 00:03:48 [Tucker Carlson] ...is going onthat gets no coverage at all.
65 00:03:51 Tens of millions of Americansare hopelessly addicted
66 00:03:54 to their electronic devices.
67 00:03:56 [reporter 2] It's exacerbated by the fact
68 00:03:58 that you can literally isolate yourselfnow
69 00:04:00 in a bubble, thanks to our technology.
70 00:04:02 Fake news is becoming more advanced
71 00:04:04 and threatening societiesaround the world.
72 00:04:06 We weren't expecting any of thiswhen we created Twitter over 12 years ago.
73 00:04:10 White House officials saythey have no reason to believe
74 00:04:12 the Russian cyberattacks will stop.
75 00:04:14 YouTube is being forcedto concentrate on cleansing the site.
76 00:04:18 [reporter 3] TikTok,if you talk to any tween out there...
77 00:04:21 [on TV] ...there's no chancethey'll delete this thing...
78 00:04:24 Hey, Isla,can you get the table ready, please?
79 00:04:26 [reporter 4] There's a questionabout whether social media
80 00:04:28 is making your child depressed.
81 00:04:30 [mom] Isla,can you set the table, please?
82 00:04:32 [reporter 5] These cosmetic proceduresare becoming so popular with teens,
83 00:04:35 plastic surgeons have coineda new syndrome for it,
84 00:04:37 "Snapchat dysmorphia,"with young patients wanting surgery
85 00:04:40 so they can look more like they doin filtered selfies.
86 00:04:43 Still don't see why you let her havethat thing.
87 00:04:45 What was I supposed to do?
88 00:04:47 I mean, every other kidin her class had one.
89 00:04:50 She's only 11.
90 00:04:51 Cass, no one's forcing you to get one.
91 00:04:53 You can stay disconnectedas long as you want.
92 00:04:55 Hey, I'm connected without a cell phone,okay? I'm on the Internet right now.
93 00:04:59 Also, that isn't even actual connection.It's just a load of sh--
94 00:05:03 Surveillance capitalism has come to shape
95 00:05:05 our politics and culturein ways many people don't perceive.
96 00:05:07 [reporter 6]ISIS inspired followers online,
97 00:05:10 and now white supremacistsare doing the same.
98 00:05:12 Recently in India,
99 00:05:14 Internet lynch mobs have killeda dozen people, including these five...
100 00:05:17 [reporter 7] It's not just fake news;it's fake news with consequences.
101 00:05:20 [reporter 8] How do you handle an epidemicin the age of fake news?
102 00:05:24 Can you get the coronavirusby eating Chinese food?
103 00:05:27 We have gone from the information ageinto the disinformation age.
104 00:05:32 Our democracy is under assault.
105 00:05:34 [man 4] What I said was,"I think the tools
106 00:05:37 that have been created today are starting
107 00:05:39 to erode the social fabricof how society works."
108 00:05:41 [eerie instrumental music continues]
109 00:05:55 -[music fades]-[indistinct chatter]
110 00:05:58 [crew member] Fine.
111 00:06:00 [stage manager] Aza doeswelcoming remarks. We play the video.
112 00:06:04 And then, "Ladies and gentlemen,Tristan Harris."
113 00:06:07 -Right.-[stage manager] Great.
114 00:06:08 So, I come up, and...
115 00:06:13 basically say, "Thank you all for coming."Um...
116 00:06:17 So, today, I wanna talk about a new agendafor technology.
117 00:06:22 And why we wanna do thatis because if you ask people,
118 00:06:25 "What's wrong in the tech industryright now?"
119 00:06:28 there's a cacophony of grievancesand scandals,
120 00:06:31 and "They stole our data."And there's tech addiction.
121 00:06:33 And there's fake news.And there's polarization
122 00:06:36 and some electionsthat are getting hacked.
123 00:06:38 But is there somethingthat is beneath all these problems
124 00:06:41 that's causing all these thingsto happen at once?
125 00:06:44 [stage manager speaking indistinctly]
126 00:06:46 -Does this feel good?-Very good. Yeah.
127 00:06:49 Um... [sighs]
128 00:06:50 I'm just trying to...Like, I want people to see...
129 00:06:53 Like, there's a problem happeningin the tech industry,
130 00:06:55 and it doesn't have a name,
131 00:06:56 and it has to do with one source,like, one...
132 00:07:00 [eerie instrumental music playing]
133 00:07:05 [Tristan] When you look around you,it feels like the world is going crazy.
134 00:07:12 You have to ask yourself, like,"Is this normal?
135 00:07:16 Or have we all fallen under some kindof spell?"
136 00:07:27 I wish more people could understandhow this works
137 00:07:30 because it shouldn't be somethingthat only the tech industry knows.
138 00:07:34 It should be somethingthat everybody knows.
139 00:07:36 [backpack zips]
140 00:07:41 [softly] Bye.
141 00:07:43 [guard] Here you go, sir.
142 00:07:47 -[employee] Hello!-[Tristan] Hi.
143 00:07:48 -Tristan. Nice to meet you.-It's Tris-tan, right?
144 00:07:50 -Yes.-Awesome. Cool.
145 00:07:53 [presenter] Tristan Harrisis a former design ethicist for Google
146 00:07:56 and has been called the closest thingSilicon Valley has to a conscience.
147 00:07:59 [reporter] He's asking tech
148 00:08:00 to bring what he calls "ethical design"to its products.
149 00:08:04 [Anderson Cooper] It's rarefor a tech insider to be so blunt,
150 00:08:06 but Tristan Harris believessomeone needs to be.
151 00:08:11 [Tristan] When I was at Google,
152 00:08:12 I was on the Gmail team,and I just started getting burnt out
153 00:08:16 'cause we'd hadso many conversations about...
154 00:08:19 you know, what the inbox should look likeand what color it should be, and...
155 00:08:23 And I, you know, felt personally addictedto e-mail,
156 00:08:26 and I found it fascinating
157 00:08:27 there was no one at Gmail workingon making it less addictive.
158 00:08:31 And I was like,"Is anybody else thinking about this?
159 00:08:34 I haven't heard anybody talk about this."
160 00:08:36 -And I was feeling this frustration...-[sighs]
161 00:08:39 ...with the tech industry, overall,
162 00:08:41 that we'd kind of, like, lost our way.
163 00:08:43 -[ominous instrumental music playing]-[message alerts chiming]
164 00:08:46 [Tristan] You know, I really struggledto try and figure out
165 00:08:49 how, from the inside, we could change it.
166 00:08:52 [energetic piano music playing]
167 00:08:55 [Tristan] And that was when I decidedto make a presentation,
168 00:08:58 kind of a call to arms.
169 00:09:00 Every day, I went home and I worked on itfor a couple hours every single night.
170 00:09:05 [typing]
171 00:09:06 [Tristan] It basically just said,you know,
172 00:09:08 never beforein history have 50 designers--
173 00:09:12 20- to 35-year-old white guysin California--
174 00:09:15 made decisions that would have an impacton two billion people.
175 00:09:21 Two billion people will have thoughtsthat they didn't intend to have
176 00:09:24 because a designer at Google said,"This is how notifications work
177 00:09:28 on that screen that you wake up toin the morning."
178 00:09:31 And we have a moral responsibility,as Google, for solving this problem.
179 00:09:36 And I sent this presentation
180 00:09:37 to about 15, 20 of my closest colleaguesat Google,
181 00:09:41 and I was very nervous about it.I wasn't sure how it was gonna land.
182 00:09:46 When I went to work the next day,
183 00:09:48 most of the laptopshad the presentation open.
184 00:09:52 Later that day, there was, like,400 simultaneous viewers,
185 00:09:54 so it just kept growing and growing.
186 00:09:56 I got e-mails from all around the company.I mean, people in every department saying,
187 00:10:00 "I totally agree.""I see this affecting my kids."
188 00:10:02 "I see this affectingthe people around me."
189 00:10:05 "We have to do something about this."
190 00:10:07 It felt like I was sort of launchinga revolution or something like that.
191 00:10:11 Later, I found out Larry Pagehad been notified about this presentation
192 00:10:15 -in three separate meetings that day.-[indistinct chatter]
193 00:10:17 [Tristan] And so, it createdthis kind of cultural moment
194 00:10:20 -that Google needed to take seriously.-[whooshing]
195 00:10:26 -[Tristan] And then... nothing.-[whooshing fades]
196 00:10:32 [message alerts chiming]
197 00:10:34 [Tim] Everyone in 2006...
198 00:10:37 including all of us at Facebook,
199 00:10:39 just had total admiration for Googleand what Google had built,
200 00:10:43 which was this incredibly useful service
201 00:10:47 that did, far as we could tell,lots of goodness for the world,
202 00:10:51 and they builtthis parallel money machine.
203 00:10:55 We had such envy for that,and it seemed so elegant to us...
204 00:11:00 and so perfect.
205 00:11:02 Facebook had been aroundfor about two years,
206 00:11:05 um, and I was hired to come inand figure out
207 00:11:08 what the business model was gonna befor the company.
208 00:11:10 I was the director of monetization.The point was, like,
209 00:11:13 "You're the person who's gonna figure outhow this thing monetizes."
210 00:11:17 And there were a lot of peoplewho did a lot of the work,
211 00:11:19 but I was clearly one of the peoplewho was pointing towards...
212 00:11:26 "Well, we have to make money, A...
213 00:11:29 and I think this advertising modelis probably the most elegant way.
214 00:11:36 [bright instrumental music playing]
215 00:11:42 Uh-oh. What's this video Mom just sent us?
216 00:11:44 Oh, that's from a talk show,but that's pretty good.
217 00:11:46 Guy's kind of a genius.
218 00:11:47 He's talking all about deletingsocial media, which you gotta do.
219 00:11:50 I might have to start blockingher e-mails.
220 00:11:52 I don't even knowwhat she's talking about, man.
221 00:11:54 She's worse than I am.
222 00:11:56 -No, she only uses it for recipes.-Right, and work.
223 00:11:58 -And workout videos.-[guy] And to check up on us.
224 00:12:00 And everyone else she's ever metin her entire life.
225 00:12:04 If you are scrolling throughyour social media feed
226 00:12:07 while you're watchin' us, you need to putthe damn phone down and listen up
227 00:12:11 'cause our next guest has writtenan incredible book
228 00:12:14 about how much it's wrecking our lives.
229 00:12:18 Please welcome author
230 00:12:19 of Ten Arguments for DeletingYour Social Media Accounts Right Now...
231 00:12:24 -[Sunny Hostin] Uh-huh.-...Jaron Lanier.
232 00:12:26 [cohosts speaking indistinctly]
233 00:12:27 [Jaron] Companies like Google and Facebookare some of the wealthiest
234 00:12:31 and most successful of all time.
235 00:12:33 Uh, they have relatively few employees.
236 00:12:36 They just have this giant computerthat rakes in money, right? Uh...
237 00:12:41 Now, what are they being paid for?
238 00:12:43 [chuckles]That's a really important question.
239 00:12:47 [Roger] So, I've been an investorin technology for 35 years.
240 00:12:51 The first 50 years of Silicon Valley,the industry made products--
241 00:12:54 hardware, software--
242 00:12:55 sold 'em to customers.Nice, simple business.
243 00:12:58 For the last ten years,the biggest companies in Silicon Valley
244 00:13:01 have been in the businessof selling their users.
245 00:13:03 It's a little even trite to say now,
246 00:13:05 but... because we don't payfor the products that we use,
247 00:13:09 advertisers payfor the products that we use.
248 00:13:12 Advertisers are the customers.
249 00:13:14 We're the thing being sold.
250 00:13:16 The classic saying is:
251 00:13:17 "If you're not paying for the product, then you are the product."
252 00:13:23 A lot of people think, you know,"Oh, well, Google's just a search box,
253 00:13:27 and Facebook's just a place to seewhat my friends are doing
254 00:13:29 and see their photos."
255 00:13:31 But what they don't realizeis they're competing for your attention.
256 00:13:36 So, you know, Facebook, Snapchat,Twitter, Instagram, YouTube,
257 00:13:41 companies like this, their business modelis to keep people engaged on the screen.
258 00:13:46 Let's figure out how to getas much of this person's attention
259 00:13:49 as we possibly can.
260 00:13:51 How much time can we get you to spend?
261 00:13:53 How much of your life can we get youto give to us?
262 00:13:58 [Justin] When you think abouthow some of these companies work,
263 00:14:01 it starts to make sense.
264 00:14:03 There are all these serviceson the Internet that we think of as free,
265 00:14:06 but they're not free.They're paid for by advertisers.
266 00:14:09 Why do advertisers pay those companies?
267 00:14:11 They pay in exchange for showing their adsto us.
268 00:14:14 We're the product. Our attentionis the product being sold to advertisers.
269 00:14:18 That's a little too simplistic.
270 00:14:20 It's the gradual, slight,imperceptible change
271 00:14:23 in your own behavior and perceptionthat is the product.
272 00:14:27 And that is the product.It's the only possible product.
273 00:14:30 There's nothing else on the tablethat could possibly be called the product.
274 00:14:34 That's the only thing there isfor them to make money from.
275 00:14:37 Changing what you do,
276 00:14:39 how you think, who you are.
277 00:14:42 It's a gradual change. It's slight.
278 00:14:45 If you can go to somebody and you say,"Give me $10 million,
279 00:14:49 and I will change the world one percentin the direction you want it to change..."
280 00:14:54 It's the world! That can be incredible,and that's worth a lot of money.
281 00:14:59 Okay.
282 00:15:00 [Shoshana] This is what every businesshas always dreamt of:
283 00:15:04 to have a guarantee that if it placesan ad, it will be successful.
284 00:15:11 That's their business.
285 00:15:12 They sell certainty.
286 00:15:14 In order to be successfulin that business,
287 00:15:17 you have to have great predictions.
288 00:15:20 Great predictions beginwith one imperative:
289 00:15:25 you need a lot of data.
290 00:15:29 Many people call thissurveillance capitalism,
291 00:15:31 capitalism profitingoff of the infinite tracking
292 00:15:34 of everywhere everyone goesby large technology companies
293 00:15:38 whose business model is to make sure
294 00:15:40 that advertisers are as successfulas possible.
295 00:15:42 This is a new kind of marketplace now.
296 00:15:45 It's a marketplacethat never existed before.
297 00:15:48 And it's a marketplacethat trades exclusively in human futures.
298 00:15:56 Just like there are markets that tradein pork belly futures or oil futures.
299 00:16:02 We now have marketsthat trade in human futures at scale,
300 00:16:08 and those markets have producedthe trillions of dollars
301 00:16:14 that have made the Internet companiesthe richest companies
302 00:16:19 in the history of humanity.
303 00:16:23 [indistinct chatter]
304 00:16:27 [Jeff] What I want people to knowis that everything they're doing online
305 00:16:31 is being watched, is being tracked,is being measured.
306 00:16:35 Every single action you takeis carefully monitored and recorded.
307 00:16:39 Exactly what image you stop and look at,for how long you look at it.
308 00:16:43 Oh, yeah, seriously,for how long you look at it.
309 00:16:45 [monitors beeping]
310 00:16:50 [Tristan] They knowwhen people are lonely.
311 00:16:52 They know when people are depressed.
312 00:16:53 They know when people are lookingat photos of your ex-romantic partners.
313 00:16:57 They know what you're doing late at night.They know the entire thing.
314 00:17:01 Whether you're an introvertor an extrovert,
315 00:17:03 or what kind of neuroses you have,what your personality type is like.
316 00:17:08 [Shoshana] They have more informationabout us
317 00:17:11 than has ever been imaginedin human history.
318 00:17:14 It is unprecedented.
319 00:17:18 And so, all of this data that we're...that we're just pouring out all the time
320 00:17:22 is being fed into these systemsthat have almost no human supervision
321 00:17:27 and that are making better and betterand better and better predictions
322 00:17:30 about what we're gonna doand... and who we are.
323 00:17:33 [indistinct chatter]
324 00:17:36 [Aza] People have the misconceptionit's our data being sold.
325 00:17:40 It's not in Facebook's business interestto give up the data.
326 00:17:45 What do they do with that data?
327 00:17:49 [console whirring]
328 00:17:51 [Aza] They build modelsthat predict our actions,
329 00:17:54 and whoever has the best model wins.
330 00:18:02 His scrolling speed is slowing.
331 00:18:04 Nearing the endof his average session length.
332 00:18:06 Decreasing ad load.
333 00:18:07 Pull back on friends and family.
334 00:18:09 [Tristan] On the other side of the screen,
335 00:18:11 it's almost as if they hadthis avatar voodoo doll-like model of us.
336 00:18:16 All of the things we've ever done,
337 00:18:18 all the clicks we've ever made,
338 00:18:19 all the videos we've watched,all the likes,
339 00:18:21 that all gets brought back into buildinga more and more accurate model.
340 00:18:25 The model, once you have it,
341 00:18:27 you can predict the kinds of thingsthat person does.
342 00:18:29 Right, let me just test.
343 00:18:32 [Tristan] Where you'll go.I can predict what kind of videos
344 00:18:35 will keep you watching.
345 00:18:36 I can predict what kinds of emotions tendto trigger you.
346 00:18:39 [blue AI] Yes, perfect.
347 00:18:41 The most epic fails of the year.
348 00:18:46 -[crowd groans on video]-[whooshes]
349 00:18:48 -Perfect. That worked.-Following with another video.
350 00:18:51 Beautiful. Let's squeeze in a sneaker adbefore it starts.
351 00:18:56 [Tristan] At a lotof technology companies,
352 00:18:58 there's three main goals.
353 00:18:59 There's the engagement goal:
354 00:19:01 to drive up your usage,to keep you scrolling.
355 00:19:04 There's the growth goal:
356 00:19:06 to keep you coming backand inviting as many friends
357 00:19:08 and getting them to invite more friends.
358 00:19:11 And then there's the advertising goal:
359 00:19:13 to make sure that,as all that's happening,
360 00:19:15 we're making as much money as possiblefrom advertising.
361 00:19:18 [console beeps]
362 00:19:19 Each of these goals are poweredby algorithms
363 00:19:22 whose job is to figure outwhat to show you
364 00:19:24 to keep those numbers going up.
365 00:19:26 We often talked about, at Facebook,this idea
366 00:19:30 of being able to just dial that as needed.
367 00:19:34 And, you know, we talkedabout having Mark have those dials.
368 00:19:41 "Hey, I want more users in Korea today."
369 00:19:45 "Turn the dial."
370 00:19:47 "Let's dial up the ads a little bit."
371 00:19:49 "Dial up monetization, just slightly."
372 00:19:52 And so, that happ--
373 00:19:55 I mean, at all of these companies,there is that level of precision.
374 00:19:59 -Dude, how---I don't know how I didn't get carded.
375 00:20:02 -That ref just, like, sucked or something.-You got literally all the way...
376 00:20:05 -That's Rebecca. Go talk to her.-I know who it is.
377 00:20:08 -Dude, yo, go talk to her.-[guy] I'm workin' on it.
378 00:20:10 His calendar says he's on a breakright now. We should be live.
379 00:20:14 [sighs] Want me to nudge him?
380 00:20:17 Yeah, nudge away.
381 00:20:18 [console beeps]
382 00:20:21 "Your friend Tyler just joined.Say hi with a wave."
383 00:20:26 [Engagement AI] Come on, Ben.
384 00:20:27 Send a wave. [sighs]
385 00:20:29 -You're not... Go talk to her, dude.-[phone vibrates, chimes]
386 00:20:33 -[Ben sighs]-[cell phone chimes]
387 00:20:36 [console beeps]
388 00:20:38 New link! All right, we're on. [exhales]
389 00:20:40 Follow that up with a postfrom User 079044238820, Rebecca.
390 00:20:46 Good idea. GPS coordinates indicatethat they're in close proximity.
391 00:20:55 He's primed for an ad.
392 00:20:57 Auction time.
393 00:21:00 Sold! To Deep Fade hair wax.
394 00:21:03 We had 468 interested bidders. We sold Benat 3.262 cents for an impression.
395 00:21:08 [melancholy piano music playing]
396 00:21:14 [Ben sighs]
397 00:21:17 [Jaron] We've created a world
398 00:21:18 in which online connectionhas become primary,
399 00:21:22 especially for younger generations.
400 00:21:23 And yet, in that world,any time two people connect,
401 00:21:29 the only way it's financedis through a sneaky third person
402 00:21:33 who's paying to manipulatethose two people.
403 00:21:36 So, we've createdan entire global generation of people
404 00:21:39 who are raised within a contextwhere the very meaning of communication,
405 00:21:44 the very meaning of culture,is manipulation.
406 00:21:47 We've put deceit and sneakiness
407 00:21:49 at the absolute centerof everything we do.
408 00:22:05 -[interviewer] Grab the...-[Tristan] Okay.
409 00:22:07 -Where's it help to hold it?-[interviewer] Great.
410 00:22:09 -[Tristan] Here?-[interviewer] Yeah.
411 00:22:10 How does this come across on cameraif I were to do, like, this move--
412 00:22:13 -[interviewer] We can---[blows] Like that?
413 00:22:15 -[interviewer laughs] What?-Yeah.
414 00:22:17 -[interviewer] Do that again.-Exactly. Yeah. [blows]
415 00:22:19 Yeah. No, it's probably not...
416 00:22:20 Like... yeah.
417 00:22:22 I mean, this one is less...
418 00:22:29 [interviewer laughs] Larissa's, like,actually freaking out over here.
419 00:22:34 Is that good?
420 00:22:35 [instrumental music playing]
421 00:22:37 [Tristan] I was, like, five years oldwhen I learned how to do magic.
422 00:22:41 And I could fool adults,fully-grown adults with, like, PhDs.
423 00:22:55 Magicians were almost likethe first neuroscientists
424 00:22:57 and psychologists.
425 00:22:59 Like, they were the oneswho first understood
426 00:23:02 how people's minds work.
427 00:23:04 They just, in real time, are testinglots and lots of stuff on people.
428 00:23:09 A magician understands something,
429 00:23:11 some part of your mindthat we're not aware of.
430 00:23:14 That's what makes the illusion work.
431 00:23:16 Doctors, lawyers, people who knowhow to build 747s or nuclear missiles,
432 00:23:20 they don't know more abouthow their own mind is vulnerable.
433 00:23:24 That's a separate discipline.
434 00:23:26 And it's a disciplinethat applies to all human beings.
435 00:23:30 From that perspective, you can havea very different understanding
436 00:23:34 of what technology is doing.
437 00:23:36 When I wasat the Stanford Persuasive Technology Lab,
438 00:23:39 this is what we learned.
439 00:23:41 How could you use everything we know
440 00:23:43 about the psychologyof what persuades people
441 00:23:45 and build that into technology?
442 00:23:48 Now, many of you in the audienceare geniuses already.
443 00:23:50 I think that's true, but my goal isto turn you into a behavior-change genius.
444 00:23:56 There are many prominent Silicon Valleyfigures who went through that class--
445 00:24:01 key growth figures at Facebook and Uberand... and other companies--
446 00:24:05 and learned how to make technologymore persuasive,
447 00:24:09 Tristan being one.
448 00:24:12 [Tristan] Persuasive technologyis just sort of design
449 00:24:14 intentionally applied to the extreme,
450 00:24:16 where we really want to modifysomeone's behavior.
451 00:24:18 We want them to take this action.
452 00:24:20 We want them to keep doing thiswith their finger.
453 00:24:23 You pull down and you refresh,it's gonna be a new thing at the top.
454 00:24:26 Pull down and refresh again, it's new.Every single time.
455 00:24:28 Which, in psychology, we calla positive intermittent reinforcement.
456 00:24:33 You don't know when you're gonna get itor if you're gonna get something,
457 00:24:37 which operates just like the slot machinesin Vegas.
458 00:24:40 It's not enoughthat you use the product consciously,
459 00:24:42 I wanna dig down deeperinto the brain stem
460 00:24:44 and implant, inside of you,
461 00:24:45 an unconscious habit
462 00:24:47 so that you are being programmedat a deeper level.
463 00:24:50 You don't even realize it.
464 00:24:52 [teacher] A man, James Marshall...
465 00:24:54 [Tristan] Every time you see it thereon the counter,
466 00:24:56 and you just look at it,and you know if you reach over,
467 00:24:59 it just might have something for you,
468 00:25:01 so you play that slot machineto see what you got, right?
469 00:25:03 That's not by accident.That's a design technique.
470 00:25:06 [teacher] He brings a golden nuggetto an officer
471 00:25:09 in the army in San Francisco.
472 00:25:12 Mind you, the... the populationof San Francisco was only...
473 00:25:15 [Jeff]Another example is photo tagging.
474 00:25:17 -[teacher] The secret didn't last.-[phone vibrates]
475 00:25:19 [Jeff] So, if you get an e-mail
476 00:25:21 that says your friend just tagged youin a photo,
477 00:25:24 of course you're going to clickon that e-mail and look at the photo.
478 00:25:29 It's not somethingyou can just decide to ignore.
479 00:25:32 This is deep-seated, like,
480 00:25:34 human personalitythat they're tapping into.
481 00:25:36 What you should be asking yourself is:
482 00:25:38 "Why doesn't that e-mail containthe photo in it?
483 00:25:40 It would be a lot easierto see the photo."
484 00:25:42 When Facebook found that feature,they just dialed the hell out of that
485 00:25:46 because they said, "This is gonna bea great way to grow activity.
486 00:25:48 Let's just get people tagging each otherin photos all day long."
487 00:25:51 [upbeat techno music playing]
488 00:25:57 [cell phone chimes]
489 00:25:59 He commented.
490 00:26:00 [Growth AI] Nice.
491 00:26:01 Okay, Rebecca received it,and she is responding.
492 00:26:04 All right, let Ben know that she's typingso we don't lose him.
493 00:26:07 Activating ellipsis.
494 00:26:09 [teacher continues speaking indistinctly]
495 00:26:13 [tense instrumental music playing]
496 00:26:19 Great, she posted.
497 00:26:21 He's commenting on her commentabout his comment on her post.
498 00:26:25 Hold on, he stopped typing.
499 00:26:26 Let's autofill.
500 00:26:28 Emojis. He loves emojis.
501 00:26:33 He went with fire.
502 00:26:34 [clicks tongue, sighs]I was rootin' for eggplant.
503 00:26:38 [Tristan] There's an entire disciplineand field called "growth hacking."
504 00:26:42 Teams of engineerswhose job is to hack people's psychology
505 00:26:47 so they can get more growth.
506 00:26:48 They can get more user sign-ups,more engagement.
507 00:26:51 They can get you to invite more people.
508 00:26:52 After all the testing, all the iterating,all of this stuff,
509 00:26:56 you know the single biggest thingwe realized?
510 00:26:57 Get any individual to seven friendsin ten days.
511 00:27:01 That was it.
512 00:27:02 Chamath was the head of growth at Facebookearly on,
513 00:27:05 and he's very well knownin the tech industry
514 00:27:08 for pioneering a lot of the growth tactics
515 00:27:11 that were used to grow Facebookat incredible speed.
516 00:27:14 And those growth tactics have then becomethe standard playbook for Silicon Valley.
517 00:27:18 They were used at Uberand at a bunch of other companies.
518 00:27:21 One of the things that he pioneeredwas the use of scientific A/B testing
519 00:27:27 of small feature changes.
520 00:27:29 Companies like Google and Facebook
521 00:27:31 would roll outlots of little, tiny experiments
522 00:27:34 that they were constantly doing on users.
523 00:27:36 And over time,by running these constant experiments,
524 00:27:39 you... you develop the most optimal way
525 00:27:43 to get users to dowhat you want them to do.
526 00:27:45 It's... It's manipulation.
527 00:27:47 [interviewer]Uh, you're making me feel like a lab rat.
528 00:27:49 You are a lab rat. We're all lab rats.
529 00:27:52 And it's not like we're lab ratsfor developing a cure for cancer.
530 00:27:55 It's not like they're tryingto benefit us.
531 00:27:58 Right? We're just zombies,and they want us to look at more ads
532 00:28:01 so they can make more money.
533 00:28:03 [Shoshana] Facebook conducted
534 00:28:05 what they called"massive-scale contagion experiments."
535 00:28:08 Okay.
536 00:28:09 [Shoshana] How do we use subliminal cueson the Facebook pages
537 00:28:13 to get more people to go votein the midterm elections?
538 00:28:17 And they discoveredthat they were able to do that.
539 00:28:20 One thing they concludedis that we now know
540 00:28:24 we can affect real-world behaviorand emotions
541 00:28:28 without ever triggeringthe user's awareness.
542 00:28:33 They are completely clueless.
543 00:28:38 We're pointing these engines of AIback at ourselves
544 00:28:42 to reverse-engineer what elicits responsesfrom us.
545 00:28:47 Almost like you're stimulating nerve cellson a spider
546 00:28:49 to see what causes its legs to respond.
547 00:28:51 So, it really isthis kind of prison experiment
548 00:28:54 where we're just, you know,roping people into the matrix,
549 00:28:56 and we're just harvesting all this moneyand... and data from all their activity
550 00:29:00 to profit from.
551 00:29:01 And we're not even awarethat it's happening.
552 00:29:04 So, we want to psychologically figure outhow to manipulate you as fast as possible
553 00:29:07 and then give you back that dopamine hit.
554 00:29:10 We did that brilliantly at Facebook.
555 00:29:12 Instagram has done it.WhatsApp has done it.
556 00:29:15 You know, Snapchat has done it.Twitter has done it.
557 00:29:17 I mean, it's exactly the kind of thing
558 00:29:19 that a... that a hacker like myselfwould come up with
559 00:29:22 because you're exploiting a vulnerabilityin... in human psychology.
560 00:29:27 [chuckles] And I just...I think that we...
561 00:29:29 you know, the inventors, creators...
562 00:29:33 uh, you know, and it's me, it's Mark,it's the...
563 00:29:37 you know, Kevin Systrom at Instagram...It's all of these people...
564 00:29:40 um, understood this consciously,and we did it anyway.
565 00:29:50 No one got upset when bicycles showed up.
566 00:29:55 Right? Like, if everyone's startingto go around on bicycles,
567 00:29:58 no one said,"Oh, my God, we've just ruined society.
568 00:30:01 [chuckles]Like, bicycles are affecting people.
569 00:30:03 They're pulling peopleaway from their kids.
570 00:30:05 They're ruining the fabric of democracy.People can't tell what's true."
571 00:30:08 Like, we never said any of that stuffabout a bicycle.
572 00:30:12 If something is a tool,it genuinely is just sitting there,
573 00:30:16 waiting patiently.
574 00:30:19 If something is not a tool,it's demanding things from you.
575 00:30:22 It's seducing you. It's manipulating you.It wants things from you.
576 00:30:26 And we've moved away from havinga tools-based technology environment
577 00:30:31 to an addiction- and manipulation-basedtechnology environment.
578 00:30:34 That's what's changed.
579 00:30:35 Social media isn't a toolthat's just waiting to be used.
580 00:30:39 It has its own goals,and it has its own means of pursuing them
581 00:30:43 by using your psychology against you.
582 00:30:45 [ominous instrumental music playing]
583 00:30:57 [Tim] Rewind a few years ago,I was the...
584 00:31:00 I was the president of Pinterest.
585 00:31:03 I was coming home,
586 00:31:05 and I couldn't get off my phoneonce I got home,
587 00:31:08 despite having two young kidswho needed my love and attention.
588 00:31:12 I was in the pantry, you know,typing away on an e-mail
589 00:31:15 or sometimes looking at Pinterest.
590 00:31:18 I thought, "God, this is classic irony.
591 00:31:19 I am going to work during the day
592 00:31:22 and building somethingthat then I am falling prey to."
593 00:31:26 And I couldn't... I mean, someof those moments, I couldn't help myself.
594 00:31:30 -[notification chimes]-[woman gasps]
595 00:31:32 The onethat I'm... I'm most prone to is Twitter.
596 00:31:36 Uh, used to be Reddit.
597 00:31:38 I actually had to write myself softwareto break my addiction to reading Reddit.
598 00:31:42 -[notifications chime]-[slot machines whir]
599 00:31:45 I'm probably most addicted to my e-mail.
600 00:31:47 I mean, really. I mean, I... I feel it.
601 00:31:49 -[notifications chime]-[woman gasps]
602 00:31:51 [electricity crackles]
603 00:31:52 Well, I mean, it's sort-- it's interesting
604 00:31:55 that knowing what was going onbehind the curtain,
605 00:31:58 I still wasn't able to control my usage.
606 00:32:01 So, that's a little scary.
607 00:32:03 Even knowing how these tricks work,I'm still susceptible to them.
608 00:32:07 I'll still pick up the phone,and 20 minutes will disappear.
609 00:32:09 [notifications chime]
610 00:32:11 -[fluid rushes]-[woman gasps]
611 00:32:12 Do you check your smartphonebefore you pee in the morning
612 00:32:15 or while you're peeing in the morning?
613 00:32:17 'Cause those are the only two choices.
614 00:32:19 I tried through willpower,just pure willpower...
615 00:32:23 "I'll put down my phone, I'll leavemy phone in the car when I get home."
616 00:32:26 I think I told myself a thousand times,a thousand different days,
617 00:32:30 "I am not gonna bring my phone to the bedroom,"
618 00:32:32 and then 9:00 p.m. rolls around.
619 00:32:34 "Well, I wanna bring my phonein the bedroom."
620 00:32:37 [takes a deep breath]And so, that was sort of...
621 00:32:39 Willpower was kind of attempt one,
622 00:32:41 and then attempt two was,you know, brute force.
623 00:32:44 [announcer] Introducing the Kitchen Safe.The Kitchen Safe is a revolutionary,
624 00:32:48 new, time-locking containerthat helps you fight temptation.
625 00:32:51 All David has to do is placethose temptations in the Kitchen Safe.
626 00:32:57 Next, he rotates the dialto set the timer.
627 00:33:01 And, finally, he presses the dialto activate the lock.
628 00:33:04 The Kitchen Safe is great...
629 00:33:05 We have that, don't we?
630 00:33:06 ...video games, credit cards,and cell phones.
631 00:33:08 Yeah, we do.
632 00:33:09 [announcer] Once the Kitchen Safeis locked, it cannot be opened
633 00:33:12 until the timer reaches zero.
634 00:33:13 [Anna] So, here's the thing.
635 00:33:15 Social media is a drug.
636 00:33:17 I mean,we have a basic biological imperative
637 00:33:20 to connect with other people.
638 00:33:23 That directly affects the releaseof dopamine in the reward pathway.
639 00:33:28 Millions of years of evolution, um,are behind that system
640 00:33:32 to get us to come togetherand live in communities,
641 00:33:35 to find mates, to propagate our species.
642 00:33:38 So, there's no doubtthat a vehicle like social media,
643 00:33:41 which optimizes this connectionbetween people,
644 00:33:45 is going to have the potentialfor addiction.
645 00:33:52 -Mmm! [laughs]-Dad, stop!
646 00:33:55 I have, like, 1,000 more snipsto send before dinner.
647 00:33:58 -[dad] Snips?-I don't know what a snip is.
648 00:34:00 -Mm, that smells good, baby.-All right. Thank you.
649 00:34:03 I was, um, thinking we could useall five senses
650 00:34:05 to enjoy our dinner tonight.
651 00:34:07 So, I decided that we're not gonna haveany cell phones at the table tonight.
652 00:34:11 So, turn 'em in.
653 00:34:13 -Really?-[mom] Yep.
654 00:34:15 -All right.-Thank you. Ben?
655 00:34:18 -Okay.-Mom, the phone pirate. [scoffs]
656 00:34:21 -Got it.-Mom!
657 00:34:22 So, they will be safe in hereuntil after dinner...
658 00:34:27 -and everyone can just chill out.-[safe whirs]
659 00:34:30 Okay?
660 00:34:40 [Cass sighs]
661 00:34:45 [notification chimes]
662 00:34:47 -Can I just see who it is?-No.
663 00:34:54 Just gonna go get another fork.
664 00:34:58 Thank you.
665 00:35:04 Honey, you can't open that.
666 00:35:06 I locked it for an hour,so just leave it alone.
667 00:35:11 So, what should we talk about?
668 00:35:13 Well, we could talk
669 00:35:14 about the, uh, Extreme Center wackosI drove by today.
670 00:35:17 -[mom] Please, Frank.-What?
671 00:35:18 [mom] I don't wanna talk about politics.
672 00:35:20 -What's wrong with the Extreme Center?-See? He doesn't even get it.
673 00:35:23 It depends on who you ask.
674 00:35:24 It's like asking,"What's wrong with propaganda?"
675 00:35:26 -[safe smashes]-[mom and Frank scream]
676 00:35:28 [Frank] Isla!
677 00:35:32 Oh, my God.
678 00:35:36 -[sighs] Do you want me to...-[mom] Yeah.
679 00:35:41 [Anna] I... I'm worried about my kids.
680 00:35:44 And if you have kids,I'm worried about your kids.
681 00:35:46 Armed with all the knowledge that I haveand all of the experience,
682 00:35:50 I am fighting my kids about the time
683 00:35:52 that they spend on phonesand on the computer.
684 00:35:54 I will say to my son, "How many hours doyou think you're spending on your phone?"
685 00:35:58 He'll be like, "It's, like, half an hour.It's half an hour, tops."
686 00:36:01 I'd say upwards hour, hour and a half.
687 00:36:04 I looked at his screen reporta couple weeks ago.
688 00:36:06 -Three hours and 45 minutes.-[James] That...
689 00:36:11 I don't think that's...No. Per day, on average?
690 00:36:13 -Yeah.-Should I go get it right now?
691 00:36:15 There's not a day that goes bythat I don't remind my kids
692 00:36:19 about the pleasure-pain balance,
693 00:36:21 about dopamine deficit states,
694 00:36:24 about the risk of addiction.
695 00:36:26 [Mary] Moment of truth.
696 00:36:27 Two hours, 50 minutes per day.
697 00:36:29 -Let's see.-Actually, I've been using a lot today.
698 00:36:31 -Last seven days.-That's probably why.
699 00:36:33 Instagram, six hours, 13 minutes.Okay, so my Instagram's worse.
700 00:36:39 My screen's completely shattered.
701 00:36:42 Thanks, Cass.
702 00:36:44 What do you mean, "Thanks, Cass"?
703 00:36:46 You keep freaking Mom out about our phoneswhen it's not really a problem.
704 00:36:49 We don't need our phones to eat dinner!
705 00:36:51 I get what you're saying.It's just not that big a deal. It's not.
706 00:36:56 If it's not that big a deal,don't use it for a week.
707 00:36:59 [Ben sighs]
708 00:37:01 Yeah. Yeah, actually, if you can putthat thing away for, like, a whole week...
709 00:37:07 I will buy you a new screen.
710 00:37:10 -Like, starting now?-[mom] Starting now.
711 00:37:15 -Okay. You got a deal.-[mom] Okay.
712 00:37:16 Okay, you gotta leave it here, though,buddy.
713 00:37:19 All right, I'm plugging it in.
714 00:37:22 Let the record show... I'm backing away.
715 00:37:25 Okay.
716 00:37:27 -You're on the clock.-[Ben] One week.
717 00:37:29 Oh, my...
718 00:37:31 Think he can do it?
719 00:37:33 I don't know. We'll see.
720 00:37:35 Just eat, okay?
721 00:37:44 Good family dinner!
722 00:37:47 [Tristan] These technology productswere not designed
723 00:37:49 by child psychologists who are tryingto protect and nurture children.
724 00:37:53 They were just designingto make these algorithms
725 00:37:56 that were really good at recommendingthe next video to you
726 00:37:58 or really good at getting youto take a photo with a filter on it.
727 00:38:15 [cell phone chimes]
728 00:38:16 [Tristan] It's not justthat it's controlling
729 00:38:18 where they spend their attention.
730 00:38:21 Especially social media starts to digdeeper and deeper down into the brain stem
731 00:38:26 and take over kids' sense of self-worthand identity.
732 00:38:41 [notifications chiming]
733 00:38:52 [Tristan] We evolved to care aboutwhether other people in our tribe...
734 00:38:56 think well of us or not'cause it matters.
735 00:38:59 But were we evolved to be awareof what 10,000 people think of us?
736 00:39:04 We were not evolvedto have social approval being dosed to us
737 00:39:08 every five minutes.
738 00:39:10 That was not at all what we were builtto experience.
739 00:39:15 [Chamath] We curate our livesaround this perceived sense of perfection
740 00:39:20 because we get rewardedin these short-term signals--
741 00:39:23 hearts, likes, thumbs-up--
742 00:39:25 and we conflate that with value,and we conflate it with truth.
743 00:39:29 And instead, what it really isis fake, brittle popularity...
744 00:39:33 that's short-term and that leaves youeven more, and admit it,
745 00:39:37 vacant and empty before you did it.
746 00:39:41 Because then it forces youinto this vicious cycle
747 00:39:43 where you're like, "What's the next thingI need to do now? 'Cause I need it back."
748 00:39:48 Think about that compoundedby two billion people,
749 00:39:50 and then think about how people react thento the perceptions of others.
750 00:39:54 It's just a... It's really bad.
751 00:39:56 It's really, really bad.
752 00:40:00 [Jonathan] There has beena gigantic increase
753 00:40:03 in depression and anxietyfor American teenagers
754 00:40:06 which began right around...between 2011 and 2013.
755 00:40:11 The number of teenage girls out of 100,000in this country
756 00:40:15 who were admitted to a hospital every year
757 00:40:17 because they cut themselvesor otherwise harmed themselves,
758 00:40:20 that number was pretty stableuntil around 2010, 2011,
759 00:40:24 and then it begins going way up.
760 00:40:28 It's up 62 percent for older teen girls.
761 00:40:33 It's up 189 percent for the preteen girls.That's nearly triple.
762 00:40:40 Even more horrifying,we see the same pattern with suicide.
763 00:40:44 The older teen girls, 15 to 19 years old,
764 00:40:47 they're up 70 percent,
765 00:40:49 compared to the first decadeof this century.
766 00:40:52 The preteen girls,who have very low rates to begin with,
767 00:40:55 they are up 151 percent.
768 00:40:58 And that pattern points to social media.
769 00:41:04 Gen Z, the kids born after 1996 or so,
770 00:41:07 those kids are the first generationin history
771 00:41:10 that got on social media in middle school.
772 00:41:12 [thunder rumbling in distance]
773 00:41:15 [Jonathan] How do they spend their time?
774 00:41:19 They come home from school,and they're on their devices.
775 00:41:24 A whole generation is more anxious,more fragile, more depressed.
776 00:41:29 -[thunder rumbles]-[Isla gasps]
777 00:41:30 [Jonathan] They're much less comfortabletaking risks.
778 00:41:34 The rates at which they getdriver's licenses have been dropping.
779 00:41:38 The numberwho have ever gone out on a date
780 00:41:41 or had any kind of romantic interactionis dropping rapidly.
781 00:41:47 This is a real change in a generation.
782 00:41:53 And remember, for every one of these,for every hospital admission,
783 00:41:57 there's a family that is traumatizedand horrified.
784 00:42:00 "My God, what is happening to our kids?"
785 00:42:08 [Isla sighs]
786 00:42:19 [Tim] It's plain as day to me.
787 00:42:22 These services are killing people...and causing people to kill themselves.
788 00:42:29 I don't know any parent who says, "Yeah,I really want my kids to be growing up
789 00:42:33 feeling manipulated by tech designers, uh,
790 00:42:36 manipulating their attention,making it impossible to do their homework,
791 00:42:39 making them compare themselvesto unrealistic standards of beauty."
792 00:42:42 Like, no one wants that. [chuckles]
793 00:42:45 No one does.
794 00:42:46 We... We used to have these protections.
795 00:42:48 When children watchedSaturday morning cartoons,
796 00:42:51 we cared about protecting children.
797 00:42:52 We would say, "You can't advertiseto these age children in these ways."
798 00:42:57 But then you take YouTube for Kids,
799 00:42:58 and it gobbles up that entire portionof the attention economy,
800 00:43:02 and now all kids are exposedto YouTube for Kids.
801 00:43:04 And all those protectionsand all those regulations are gone.
802 00:43:08 [tense instrumental music playing]
803 00:43:18 [Tristan] We're training and conditioninga whole new generation of people...
804 00:43:23 that when we are uncomfortable or lonelyor uncertain or afraid,
805 00:43:29 we have a digital pacifier for ourselves
806 00:43:32 that is kind of atrophying our own abilityto deal with that.
807 00:43:53 [Tristan] Photoshop didn't have1,000 engineers
808 00:43:55 on the other side of the screen,using notifications, using your friends,
809 00:43:59 using AI to predict what's gonnaperfectly addict you, or hook you,
810 00:44:02 or manipulate you, or allow advertisers
811 00:44:04 to test 60,000 variationsof text or colors to figure out
812 00:44:08 what's the perfect manipulationof your mind.
813 00:44:11 This is a totally new speciesof power and influence.
814 00:44:16 I... I would say, again, the methods used
815 00:44:19 to play on people's abilityto be addicted or to be influenced
816 00:44:22 may be different this time,and they probably are different.
817 00:44:25 They were different when newspaperscame in and the printing press came in,
818 00:44:28 and they were differentwhen television came in,
819 00:44:31 and you had three major networks and...
820 00:44:34 -At the time.-At the time. That's what I'm saying.
821 00:44:36 But I'm saying the ideathat there's a new level
822 00:44:38 and that new level has happenedso many times before.
823 00:44:42 I mean, this is just the latest new levelthat we've seen.
824 00:44:45 There's this narrative that, you know,"We'll just adapt to it.
825 00:44:48 We'll learn how to livewith these devices,
826 00:44:51 just like we've learned how to livewith everything else."
827 00:44:53 And what this missesis there's something distinctly new here.
828 00:44:57 Perhaps the most dangerous pieceof all this is the fact
829 00:45:00 that it's driven by technologythat's advancing exponentially.
830 00:45:05 Roughly, if you say from, like,the 1960s to today,
831 00:45:09 processing power has gone upabout a trillion times.
832 00:45:13 Nothing else that we have has improvedat anything near that rate.
833 00:45:18 Like, cars are, you know,roughly twice as fast.
834 00:45:22 And almost everything else is negligible.
835 00:45:25 And perhaps most importantly,
836 00:45:27 our human-- our physiology,our brains have evolved not at all.
837 00:45:37 [Tristan] Human beings, at a mind and bodyand sort of physical level,
838 00:45:41 are not gonna fundamentally change.
839 00:45:44 [indistinct chatter]
840 00:45:47 [chuckling] I know, but they...
841 00:45:49 [continues speaking indistinctly]
842 00:45:53 [camera shutter clicks]
843 00:45:56 [Tristan] We can do genetic engineeringand develop new kinds of human beings,
844 00:46:01 but realistically speaking,you're living inside of hardware, a brain,
845 00:46:05 that was, like, millions of years old,
846 00:46:07 and then there's this screen, and thenon the opposite side of the screen,
847 00:46:10 there's these thousands of engineersand supercomputers
848 00:46:13 that have goals that are differentthan your goals,
849 00:46:16 and so, who's gonna win in that game?Who's gonna win?
850 00:46:25 How are we losing?
851 00:46:27 -I don't know.-Where is he? This is not normal.
852 00:46:29 Did I overwhelm himwith friends and family content?
853 00:46:32 -Probably.-Well, maybe it was all the ads.
854 00:46:34 No. Something's very wrong.Let's switch to resurrection mode.
855 00:46:39 [Tristan] When you think of AI,you know, an AI's gonna ruin the world,
856 00:46:44 and you see, like, a Terminator,and you see Arnold Schwarzenegger.
857 00:46:47 I'll be back.
858 00:46:48 [Tristan] You see drones,and you think, like,
859 00:46:51 "Oh, we're gonna kill people with AI."
860 00:46:53 And what people miss is that AIalready runs today's world right now.
861 00:46:59 Even talking about "an AI"is just a metaphor.
862 00:47:03 At these companies like... like Google,there's just massive, massive rooms,
863 00:47:10 some of them underground,some of them underwater,
864 00:47:13 of just computers.
865 00:47:14 Tons and tons of computers,as far as the eye can see.
866 00:47:18 They're deeply interconnectedwith each other
867 00:47:20 and runningextremely complicated programs,
868 00:47:23 sending information back and forthbetween each other all the time.
869 00:47:26 And they'll be runningmany different programs,
870 00:47:28 many different productson those same machines.
871 00:47:31 Some of those things could be describedas simple algorithms,
872 00:47:33 some could be described as algorithms
873 00:47:35 that are so complicated,you would call them intelligence.
874 00:47:39 [crew member sighs]
875 00:47:40 [Cathy]I like to say that algorithms are opinions
876 00:47:42 embedded in code...
877 00:47:45 and that algorithms are not objective.
878 00:47:48 Algorithms are optimizedto some definition of success.
879 00:47:52 So, if you can imagine,
880 00:47:53 if a... if a commercial enterprise buildsan algorithm
881 00:47:57 to their definition of success,
882 00:47:59 it's a commercial interest.
883 00:48:01 It's usually profit.
884 00:48:03 You are giving the computerthe goal state, "I want this outcome,"
885 00:48:07 and then the computer itself is learninghow to do it.
886 00:48:10 That's where the term "machine learning"comes from.
887 00:48:12 And so, every day, it gets slightly better
888 00:48:14 at picking the right postsin the right order
889 00:48:17 so that you spend longer and longerin that product.
890 00:48:19 And no one really understandswhat they're doing
891 00:48:22 in order to achieve that goal.
892 00:48:23 The algorithm has a mind of its own,so even though a person writes it,
893 00:48:28 it's written in a way
894 00:48:30 that you kind of build the machine,and then the machine changes itself.
895 00:48:35 There's only a handful of peopleat these companies,
896 00:48:37 at Facebook and Twitterand other companies...
897 00:48:40 There's only a few people who understandhow those systems work,
898 00:48:43 and even they don't necessarilyfully understand
899 00:48:46 what's gonna happenwith a particular piece of content.
900 00:48:49 So, as humans, we've almost lost controlover these systems.
901 00:48:55 Because they're controlling, you know,the information that we see,
902 00:48:59 they're controlling us morethan we're controlling them.
903 00:49:02 -[console whirs]-[Growth AI] Cross-referencing him
904 00:49:04 against comparablesin his geographic zone.
905 00:49:07 His psychometric doppelgangers.
906 00:49:09 There are 13,694 peoplebehaving just like him in his region.
907 00:49:13 -What's trending with them?-We need something actually good
908 00:49:16 for a proper resurrection,
909 00:49:17 given that the typical stuffisn't working.
910 00:49:20 Not even that cute girl from school.
911 00:49:22 My analysis shows that going politicalwith Extreme Center content
912 00:49:25 has a 62.3 percent chanceof long-term engagement.
913 00:49:28 That's not bad.
914 00:49:29 [sighs] It's not good enough to lead with.
915 00:49:32 Okay, okay, so we've tried notifying himabout tagged photos,
916 00:49:35 invitations, current events,even a direct message from Rebecca.
917 00:49:39 But what about User 01265923010?
918 00:49:42 Yeah, Ben loved all of her posts.
919 00:49:44 For months and, like,literally all of them, and then nothing.
920 00:49:47 I calculate a 92.3 percent chanceof resurrection
921 00:49:50 with a notification about Ana.
922 00:49:56 And her new friend.
923 00:49:59 [eerie instrumental music playing]
924 00:50:10 [cell phone vibrates]
925 00:50:25 [Ben] Oh, you gotta be kiddin' me.
926 00:50:32 Uh... [sighs]
927 00:50:35 Okay.
928 00:50:38 -What?-[fanfare plays, fireworks pop]
929 00:50:41 [claps] Bam! We're back!
930 00:50:42 Let's get back to making money, boys.
931 00:50:44 Yes, and connecting Benwith the entire world.
932 00:50:46 I'm giving him accessto all the information he might like.
933 00:50:49 Hey, do you guys ever wonder if, you know,like, the feed is good for Ben?
934 00:50:57 -No.-No. [chuckles slightly]
935 00:51:00 -[chuckles softly]-["I Put a Spell on You" playing]
936 00:51:17 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪
937 00:51:25 ♪ 'Cause you're mine ♪
938 00:51:28 [vocalizing] ♪ Ah! ♪
939 00:51:34 ♪ You better stop the things you do ♪
940 00:51:41 ♪ I ain't lyin' ♪
941 00:51:44 ♪ No, I ain't lyin' ♪
942 00:51:49 ♪ You know I can't stand it ♪
943 00:51:53 ♪ You're runnin' around ♪
944 00:51:55 ♪ You know better, Daddy ♪
945 00:51:58 ♪ I can't stand it'Cause you put me down ♪
946 00:52:03 ♪ Yeah, yeah ♪
947 00:52:06 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪
948 00:52:12 ♪ Because you're mine ♪
949 00:52:18 ♪ You're mine ♪
950 00:52:20 [Roger] So, imagine you're on Facebook...
951 00:52:24 and you're effectively playingagainst this artificial intelligence
952 00:52:29 that knows everything about you,
953 00:52:31 can anticipate your next move,and you know literally nothing about it,
954 00:52:34 except that there are cat videosand birthdays on it.
955 00:52:37 That's not a fair fight.
956 00:52:41 Ben and Jerry, it's time to go, bud!
957 00:52:48 [sighs]
958 00:52:51 Ben?
959 00:53:01 [knocks lightly on door]
960 00:53:02 -[Cass] Ben.-[Ben] Mm.
961 00:53:05 Come on.
962 00:53:07 School time. [claps]
963 00:53:08 Let's go.
964 00:53:12 [Ben sighs]
965 00:53:25 [excited chatter]
966 00:53:31 -[tech] How you doing today?-Oh, I'm... I'm nervous.
967 00:53:33 -Are ya?-Yeah. [chuckles]
968 00:53:37 [Tristan]We were all looking for the moment
969 00:53:39 when technology would overwhelmhuman strengths and intelligence.
970 00:53:43 When is it gonna cross the singularity,replace our jobs, be smarter than humans?
971 00:53:48 But there's this much earlier moment...
972 00:53:50 when technology exceedsand overwhelms human weaknesses.
973 00:53:57 This point being crossedis at the root of addiction,
974 00:54:02 polarization, radicalization,outrage-ification,
975 00:54:04 vanity-ification, the entire thing.
976 00:54:07 This is overpowering human nature,
977 00:54:10 and this is checkmate on humanity.
978 00:54:20 -[sighs deeply]-[door opens]
979 00:54:30 I'm sorry. [sighs]
980 00:54:37 -[seat belt clicks]-[engine starts]
981 00:54:41 [Jaron] One of the waysI try to get people to understand
982 00:54:45 just how wrong feeds from placeslike Facebook are
983 00:54:49 is to think about the Wikipedia.
984 00:54:52 When you go to a page, you're seeingthe same thing as other people.
985 00:54:56 So, it's one of the few things onlinethat we at least hold in common.
986 00:55:00 Now, just imagine for a secondthat Wikipedia said,
987 00:55:03 "We're gonna give each persona different customized definition,
988 00:55:07 and we're gonna be paid by peoplefor that."
989 00:55:09 So, Wikipedia would be spying on you.Wikipedia would calculate,
990 00:55:13 "What's the thing I can doto get this person to change a little bit
991 00:55:17 on behalf of some commercial interest?"Right?
992 00:55:19 And then it would change the entry.
993 00:55:22 Can you imagine that?Well, you should be able to,
994 00:55:24 'cause that's exactly what's happeningon Facebook.
995 00:55:26 It's exactly what's happeningin your YouTube feed.
996 00:55:29 When you go to Google and type in"Climate change is,"
997 00:55:31 you're going to see different resultsdepending on where you live.
998 00:55:36 In certain cities,you're gonna see it autocomplete
999 00:55:38 with "climate change is a hoax."
1000 00:55:40 In other cases, you're gonna see
1001 00:55:42 "climate change is causing the destructionof nature."
1002 00:55:44 And that's a function notof what the truth is about climate change,
1003 00:55:48 but aboutwhere you happen to be Googling from
1004 00:55:51 and the particular thingsGoogle knows about your interests.
1005 00:55:54 Even two friendswho are so close to each other,
1006 00:55:58 who have almost the exact same setof friends,
1007 00:56:00 they think, you know,"I'm going to news feeds on Facebook.
1008 00:56:02 I'll see the exact same set of updates."
1009 00:56:05 But it's not like that at all.
1010 00:56:06 They see completely different worlds
1011 00:56:08 because they're basedon these computers calculating
1012 00:56:10 what's perfect for each of them.
1013 00:56:12 [whistling over monitor]
1014 00:56:14 [Roger] The way to think about itis it's 2.7 billion Truman Shows.
1015 00:56:18 Each person has their own reality,with their own...
1016 00:56:22 facts.
1017 00:56:23 Why do you thinkthat, uh, Truman has never come close
1018 00:56:27 to discovering the true natureof his world until now?
1019 00:56:31 We accept the reality of the worldwith which we're presented.
1020 00:56:34 It's as simple as that.
1021 00:56:36 Over time, you have the false sensethat everyone agrees with you,
1022 00:56:41 because everyone in your news feedsounds just like you.
1023 00:56:44 And that once you're in that state,it turns out you're easily manipulated,
1024 00:56:49 the same way you would be manipulatedby a magician.
1025 00:56:51 A magician shows you a card trickand says, "Pick a card, any card."
1026 00:56:55 What you don't realizewas that they've done a set-up,
1027 00:56:58 so you pick the cardthey want you to pick.
1028 00:57:00 And that's how Facebook works.Facebook sits there and says,
1029 00:57:03 "Hey, you pick your friends.You pick the links that you follow."
1030 00:57:06 But that's all nonsense.It's just like the magician.
1031 00:57:08 Facebook is in charge of your news feed.
1032 00:57:11 We all simply are operatingon a different set of facts.
1033 00:57:14 When that happens at scale,
1034 00:57:16 you're no longer able to reckon withor even consume information
1035 00:57:20 that contradicts with that world viewthat you've created.
1036 00:57:23 That means we aren't actually beingobjective,
1037 00:57:26 constructive individuals. [chuckles]
1038 00:57:28 [crowd chanting] Open up your eyes,don't believe the lies! Open up...
1039 00:57:32 [Justin] And then you lookover at the other side,
1040 00:57:35 and you start to think,"How can those people be so stupid?
1041 00:57:38 Look at all of this informationthat I'm constantly seeing.
1042 00:57:42 How are they not seeingthat same information?"
1043 00:57:44 And the answer is, "They're not seeingthat same information."
1044 00:57:47 [crowd continues chanting]Open up your eyes, don't believe the lies!
1045 00:57:50 [shouting indistinctly]
1046 00:57:52 -[interviewer] What are Republicans like?-People that don't have a clue.
1047 00:57:55 The Democrat Party is a crime syndicate,not a real political party.
1048 00:57:59 A huge new Pew Research Center studyof 10,000 American adults
1049 00:58:03 finds us more divided than ever,
1050 00:58:05 with personal and political polarizationat a 20-year high.
1051 00:58:11 [pundit] You havemore than a third of Republicans saying
1052 00:58:14 the Democratic Party is a threatto the nation,
1053 00:58:16 more than a quarter of Democrats sayingthe same thing about the Republicans.
1054 00:58:20 So many of the problemsthat we're discussing,
1055 00:58:22 like, around political polarization
1056 00:58:24 exist in spades on cable television.
1057 00:58:28 The media has this exact same problem,
1058 00:58:31 where their business model, by and large,
1059 00:58:33 is that they're selling our attentionto advertisers.
1060 00:58:35 And the Internet is just a new,even more efficient way to do that.
1061 00:58:40 [Guillaume] At YouTube, I was workingon YouTube recommendations.
1062 00:58:44 It worries me that an algorithmthat I worked on
1063 00:58:47 is actually increasing polarizationin society.
1064 00:58:50 But from the point of view of watch time,
1065 00:58:53 this polarization is extremely efficientat keeping people online.
1066 00:58:58 The only reasonthese teachers are teaching this stuff
1067 00:59:00 is 'cause they're getting paid to.
1068 00:59:02 -It's absolutely absurd.-[Cass] Hey, Benji.
1069 00:59:04 No soccer practice today?
1070 00:59:06 Oh, there is. I'm just catching upon some news stuff.
1071 00:59:08 [vlogger] Do research. Anythingthat sways from the Extreme Center--
1072 00:59:11 Wouldn't exactly call the stuffthat you're watching news.
1073 00:59:15 You're always talking about how messed upeverything is. So are they.
1074 00:59:19 But that stuff is just propaganda.
1075 00:59:21 [vlogger] Neither is true.It's all about what makes sense.
1076 00:59:24 Ben, I'm serious.That stuff is bad for you.
1077 00:59:27 -You should go to soccer practice.-[Ben] Mm.
1078 00:59:31 [Cass sighs]
1079 00:59:35 I share this stuff because I care.
1080 00:59:37 I care that you are being misled,and it's not okay. All right?
1081 00:59:41 [Guillaume] People thinkthe algorithm is designed
1082 00:59:43 to give them what they really want,only it's not.
1083 00:59:46 The algorithm is actually trying to finda few rabbit holes that are very powerful,
1084 00:59:52 trying to find which rabbit holeis the closest to your interest.
1085 00:59:56 And then if you start watchingone of those videos,
1086 00:59:59 then it will recommend itover and over again.
1087 01:00:02 It's not like anybody wants thisto happen.
1088 01:00:05 It's just that this iswhat the recommendation system is doing.
1089 01:00:07 So much so that Kyrie Irving,the famous basketball player,
1090 01:00:11 uh, said he believed the Earth was flat,and he apologized later
1091 01:00:14 because he blamed iton a YouTube rabbit hole.
1092 01:00:16 You know, like,you click the YouTube click
1093 01:00:18 and it goes, like,how deep the rabbit hole goes.
1094 01:00:21 When he later came on to NPR to say,
1095 01:00:23 "I'm sorry for believing this. I didn't want to mislead people,"
1096 01:00:26 a bunch of students in a classroomwere interviewed saying,
1097 01:00:28 "The round-Earthers got to him."
1098 01:00:29 [audience chuckles]
1099 01:00:31 The flat-Earth conspiracy theorywas recommended
1100 01:00:34 hundreds of millions of timesby the algorithm.
1101 01:00:37 It's easy to think that it's justa few stupid people who get convinced,
1102 01:00:43 but the algorithm is getting smarterand smarter every day.
1103 01:00:46 So, today, they are convincing the peoplethat the Earth is flat,
1104 01:00:50 but tomorrow, they will be convincing youof something that's false.
1105 01:00:54 [reporter] On November 7th,the hashtag "Pizzagate" was born.
1106 01:00:57 [Renée] Pizzagate...
1107 01:01:00 [clicks tongue] Oh, boy.
1108 01:01:01 Uh... [laughs]
1109 01:01:03 I still am not 100 percent surehow this originally came about,
1110 01:01:06 but the idea that ordering a pizzameant ordering a trafficked person.
1111 01:01:12 As the groups got bigger on Facebook,
1112 01:01:15 Facebook's recommendation enginestarted suggesting to regular users
1113 01:01:20 that they join Pizzagate groups.
1114 01:01:21 So, if a user was, for example,anti-vaccine or believed in chemtrails
1115 01:01:27 or had indicated to Facebook's algorithmsin some way
1116 01:01:30 that they were prone to beliefin conspiracy theories,
1117 01:01:33 Facebook's recommendation enginewould serve them Pizzagate groups.
1118 01:01:36 Eventually, this culminated ina man showing up with a gun,
1119 01:01:41 deciding that he was gonna go liberatethe children from the basement
1120 01:01:44 of the pizza placethat did not have a basement.
1121 01:01:46 [officer 1] What were you doing?
1122 01:01:48 [man] Making surethere was nothing there.
1123 01:01:50 -[officer 1] Regarding?-[man] Pedophile ring.
1124 01:01:52 -[officer 1] What?-[man] Pedophile ring.
1125 01:01:54 [officer 2] He's talking about Pizzagate.
1126 01:01:56 This is an example of a conspiracy theory
1127 01:02:00 that was propagatedacross all social networks.
1128 01:02:03 The social network'sown recommendation engine
1129 01:02:06 is voluntarily serving this up to people
1130 01:02:08 who had never searchedfor the term "Pizzagate" in their life.
1131 01:02:12 [Tristan] There's a study, an MIT study,
1132 01:02:14 that fake news on Twitter spreadssix times faster than true news.
1133 01:02:19 What is that world gonna look like
1134 01:02:21 when one has a six-times advantageto the other one?
1135 01:02:25 You can imaginethese things are sort of like...
1136 01:02:27 they... they tilt the floorof... of human behavior.
1137 01:02:31 They make some behavior harderand some easier.
1138 01:02:34 And you're always freeto walk up the hill,
1139 01:02:37 but fewer people do,
1140 01:02:38 and so, at scale, at society's scale,you really are just tilting the floor
1141 01:02:43 and changing what billions of people thinkand do.
1142 01:02:46 We've created a systemthat biases towards false information.
1143 01:02:52 Not because we want to,
1144 01:02:54 but because false information makesthe companies more money
1145 01:02:59 than the truth. The truth is boring.
1146 01:03:01 It's a disinformation-for-profitbusiness model.
1147 01:03:04 You make money the more you allowunregulated messages
1148 01:03:08 to reach anyone for the best price.
1149 01:03:11 Because climate change? Yeah.
1150 01:03:14 It's a hoax. Yeah, it's real.That's the point.
1151 01:03:16 The more they talk about itand the more they divide us,
1152 01:03:20 the more they have the power,the more...
1153 01:03:22 [Tristan] Facebook has trillionsof these news feed posts.
1154 01:03:26 They can't know what's realor what's true...
1155 01:03:29 which is why this conversationis so critical right now.
1156 01:03:33 [reporter 1] It's not just COVID-19that's spreading fast.
1157 01:03:37 There's a flow of misinformation onlineabout the virus.
1158 01:03:40 [reporter 2] The notiondrinking water
1159 01:03:41 will flush coronavirus from your system
1160 01:03:43 is one of several myths about the viruscirculating on social media.
1161 01:03:47 [automated voice] The government plannedthis event, created the virus,
1162 01:03:50 and had a simulationof how the countries would react.
1163 01:03:53 Coronavirus is a... a hoax.
1164 01:03:56 [man] SARS, coronavirus.
1165 01:03:58 And look at when it was made. 2018.
1166 01:04:01 I think the US government startedthis shit.
1167 01:04:04 Nobody is sick. Nobody is sick.Nobody knows anybody who's sick.
1168 01:04:09 Maybe the government is usingthe coronavirus as an excuse
1169 01:04:13 to get everyone to stay insidebecause something else is happening.
1170 01:04:15 Coronavirus is not killing people,
1171 01:04:18 it's the 5G radiationthat they're pumping out.
1172 01:04:21 [crowd shouting]
1173 01:04:22 [Tristan]We're being bombarded with rumors.
1174 01:04:25 People are blowing upactual physical cell phone towers.
1175 01:04:28 We see Russia and China spreading rumorsand conspiracy theories.
1176 01:04:32 [reporter 3] This morning,panic and protest in Ukraine as...
1177 01:04:35 [Tristan] People have no idea what's true,and now it's a matter of life and death.
1178 01:04:39 [woman] Those sources that are spreadingcoronavirus misinformation
1179 01:04:42 have amassedsomething like 52 million engagements.
1180 01:04:45 You're saying that silver solutionwould be effective.
1181 01:04:50 Well, let's say it hasn't been testedon this strain of the coronavirus, but...
1182 01:04:54 [Tristan] What we're seeing with COVIDis just an extreme version
1183 01:04:57 of what's happeningacross our information ecosystem.
1184 01:05:00 Social media amplifies exponential gossipand exponential hearsay
1185 01:05:05 to the pointthat we don't know what's true,
1186 01:05:07 no matter what issue we care about.
1187 01:05:15 [teacher] He discovers this.
1188 01:05:16 [continues lecturing indistinctly]
1189 01:05:19 [Rebecca whispers] Ben.
1190 01:05:26 -Are you still on the team?-[Ben] Mm-hmm.
1191 01:05:30 [Rebecca] Okay, well,I'm gonna get a snack before practice
1192 01:05:32 if you... wanna come.
1193 01:05:35 [Ben] Hm?
1194 01:05:36 [Rebecca] You know, never mind.
1195 01:05:38 [footsteps fading]
1196 01:05:45 [vlogger] Nine out of ten peopleare dissatisfied right now.
1197 01:05:47 The EC is like any political movementin history, when you think about it.
1198 01:05:50 We are standing up, and we are...we are standing up to this noise.
1199 01:05:54 You are my people. I trust you guys.
1200 01:05:59 -The Extreme Center content is brilliant.-He absolutely loves it.
1201 01:06:02 Running an auction.
1202 01:06:04 840 bidders. He sold for 4.35 centsto a weapons manufacturer.
1203 01:06:08 Let's promote some of these events.
1204 01:06:10 Upcoming rallies in his geographic zonelater this week.
1205 01:06:13 I've got a new vlogger lined up, too.
1206 01:06:15 [chuckles]
1207 01:06:17 And... and, honestly, I'm telling you,I'm willing to do whatever it takes.
1208 01:06:23 And I mean whatever.
1209 01:06:32 -Subscribe...-[Cass] Ben?
1210 01:06:33 ...and also come backbecause I'm telling you, yo...
1211 01:06:35 -[knocking on door]-...I got some real big things comin'.
1212 01:06:38 Some real big things.
1213 01:06:40 [Roger] One of the problems with Facebookis that, as a tool of persuasion,
1214 01:06:45 it may be the greatest thing ever created.
1215 01:06:48 Now, imagine what that means in the handsof a dictator or an authoritarian.
1216 01:06:53 If you want to control the populationof your country,
1217 01:06:57 there has never been a toolas effective as Facebook.
1218 01:07:04 [Cynthia]Some of the most troubling implications
1219 01:07:07 of governments and other bad actorsweaponizing social media,
1220 01:07:11 um, is that it has ledto real, offline harm.
1221 01:07:13 I think the most prominent example
1222 01:07:15 that's gotten a lot of pressis what's happened in Myanmar.
1223 01:07:19 In Myanmar,when people think of the Internet,
1224 01:07:21 what they are thinking about is Facebook.
1225 01:07:22 And what often happens iswhen people buy their cell phone,
1226 01:07:26 the cell phone shop owner will actuallypreload Facebook on there for them
1227 01:07:30 and open an account for them.
1228 01:07:31 And so when people get their phone,the first thing they open
1229 01:07:34 and the only thing they know how to openis Facebook.
1230 01:07:38 Well, a new bombshell investigationexposes Facebook's growing struggle
1231 01:07:41 to tackle hate speech in Myanmar.
1232 01:07:43 [crowd shouting]
1233 01:07:46 Facebook really gave the militaryand other bad actors
1234 01:07:49 a new way to manipulate public opinion
1235 01:07:51 and to help incite violenceagainst the Rohingya Muslims
1236 01:07:55 that included mass killings,
1237 01:07:58 burning of entire villages,
1238 01:07:59 mass rape, and other serious crimesagainst humanity
1239 01:08:03 that have now led
1240 01:08:05 to 700,000 Rohingya Muslimshaving to flee the country.
1241 01:08:11 It's notthat highly motivated propagandists
1242 01:08:14 haven't existed before.
1243 01:08:16 It's that the platforms make it possible
1244 01:08:19 to spread manipulative narrativeswith phenomenal ease,
1245 01:08:23 and without very much money.
1246 01:08:25 If I want to manipulate an election,
1247 01:08:27 I can now go intoa conspiracy theory group on Facebook,
1248 01:08:30 and I can find 100 people
1249 01:08:32 who believethat the Earth is completely flat
1250 01:08:34 and think it's all this conspiracy theorythat we landed on the moon,
1251 01:08:37 and I can tell Facebook,"Give me 1,000 users who look like that."
1252 01:08:42 Facebook will happily send methousands of users that look like them
1253 01:08:46 that I can now hitwith more conspiracy theories.
1254 01:08:50 -[button clicks]-Sold for 3.4 cents an impression.
1255 01:08:53 -New EC video to promote.-[Advertising AI] Another ad teed up.
1256 01:08:58 [Justin] Algorithmsand manipulative politicians
1257 01:09:01 are becoming so expert
1258 01:09:02 at learning how to trigger us,
1259 01:09:04 getting so good at creating fake newsthat we absorb as if it were reality,
1260 01:09:08 and confusing us into believingthose lies.
1261 01:09:10 It's as though we haveless and less control
1262 01:09:12 over who we are and what we believe.
1263 01:09:14 [ominous instrumental music playing]
1264 01:09:31 [vlogger] ...so they can pick sides.
1265 01:09:32 There's lies here,and there's lies over there.
1266 01:09:34 So they can keep the power,
1267 01:09:36 -so they can control everything.-[police siren blaring]
1268 01:09:40 [vlogger] They can control our minds,
1269 01:09:42 -so that they can keep their secrets.-[crowd chanting]
1270 01:09:48 [Tristan] Imagine a worldwhere no one believes anything true.
1271 01:09:52 Everyone believesthe government's lying to them.
1272 01:09:56 Everything is a conspiracy theory.
1273 01:09:58 "I shouldn't trust anyone.I hate the other side."
1274 01:10:01 That's where all this is heading.
1275 01:10:02 The political earthquakes in Europecontinue to rumble.
1276 01:10:06 This time, in Italy and Spain.
1277 01:10:08 [reporter] Overall, Europe's traditional,centrist coalition lost its majority
1278 01:10:12 while far rightand far left populist parties made gains.
1279 01:10:15 [man shouts]
1280 01:10:16 [crowd chanting]
1281 01:10:19 Back up.
1282 01:10:21 -[radio beeps]-Okay, let's go.
1283 01:10:24 [police siren wailing]
1284 01:10:28 [reporter] These accountswere deliberately, specifically attempting
1285 01:10:31 -to sow political discord in Hong Kong.-[crowd shouting]
1286 01:10:36 [sighs]
1287 01:10:38 -All right, Ben.-[car doors lock]
1288 01:10:42 What does it look like to be a country
1289 01:10:45 that's entire diet is Facebookand social media?
1290 01:10:48 Democracy crumbled quickly.
1291 01:10:50 Six months.
1292 01:10:51 [reporter 1] After that chaos in Chicago,
1293 01:10:53 violent clashes between protestersand supporters...
1294 01:10:58 [reporter 2] Democracy is facinga crisis of confidence.
1295 01:11:01 What we're seeing is a global assaulton democracy.
1296 01:11:04 [crowd shouting]
1297 01:11:05 [Renée] Most of the countriesthat are targeted are countries
1298 01:11:08 that run democratic elections.
1299 01:11:10 [Tristan] This is happening at scale.
1300 01:11:12 By state actors,by people with millions of dollars saying,
1301 01:11:15 "I wanna destabilize Kenya.I wanna destabilize Cameroon.
1302 01:11:18 Oh, Angola? That only costs this much."
1303 01:11:20 [reporter] An extraordinary electiontook place Sunday in Brazil.
1304 01:11:23 With a campaign that's been poweredby social media.
1305 01:11:25 [crowd chanting in Portuguese]
1306 01:11:31 [Tristan] We in the tech industryhave created the tools
1307 01:11:34 to destabilizeand erode the fabric of society
1308 01:11:37 in every country, all at once, everywhere.
1309 01:11:40 You have this in Germany, Spain, France,Brazil, Australia.
1310 01:11:44 Some of the most "developed nations"in the world
1311 01:11:47 are now imploding on each other,
1312 01:11:49 and what do they have in common?
1313 01:11:51 Knowing what you know now,
1314 01:11:53 do you believe Facebook impactedthe results of the 2016 election?
1315 01:11:56 [Mark Zuckerberg]Oh, that's... that is hard.
1316 01:11:58 You know, it's... the...
1317 01:12:01 the reality is, well, therewere so many different forces at play.
1318 01:12:04 Representatives from Facebook, Twitter,and Google are back on Capitol Hill
1319 01:12:07 for a second day of testimony
1320 01:12:09 about Russia's interferencein the 2016 election.
1321 01:12:12 The manipulationby third parties is not a hack.
1322 01:12:18 Right? The Russians didn't hack Facebook.
1323 01:12:21 What they did was they used the toolsthat Facebook created
1324 01:12:25 for legitimate advertisersand legitimate users,
1325 01:12:27 and they applied itto a nefarious purpose.
1326 01:12:32 [Tristan]It's like remote-control warfare.
1327 01:12:34 One country can manipulate another one
1328 01:12:36 without actually invadingits physical borders.
1329 01:12:39 [reporter 1] We're seeing violent images.It appears to be a dumpster
1330 01:12:42 being pushed around...
1331 01:12:43 [Tristan] But it wasn'tabout who you wanted to vote for.
1332 01:12:46 It was about sowing total chaosand division in society.
1333 01:12:50 [reporter 2] Now,this was in Huntington Beach. A march...
1334 01:12:53 [Tristan] It's about making two sides
1335 01:12:54 who couldn't hear each other anymore,
1336 01:12:56 who didn't want to hear each otheranymore,
1337 01:12:58 who didn't trust each other anymore.
1338 01:12:59 [reporter 3] This is a citywhere hatred was laid bare
1339 01:13:03 and transformed into racial violence.
1340 01:13:05 [crowd shouting]
1341 01:13:09 [indistinct shouting]
1342 01:13:12 [men grunting]
1343 01:13:17 [police siren blaring]
1344 01:13:20 [Cass] Ben!
1345 01:13:21 Cassandra!
1346 01:13:22 -Cass!-Ben!
1347 01:13:23 [officer 1] Come here! Come here!
1348 01:13:27 Arms up. Arms up.Get down on your knees. Now, down.
1349 01:13:31 [crowd continues shouting]
1350 01:13:36 -[officer 2] Calm---Ben!
1351 01:13:37 [officer 2] Hey! Hands up!
1352 01:13:39 Turn around. On the ground. On the ground!
1353 01:13:43 -[crowd echoing]-[melancholy piano music playing]
1354 01:13:51 [siren continues wailing]
1355 01:13:56 [Tristan] Do we want this system for saleto the highest bidder?
1356 01:14:01 For democracy to be completely for sale,where you can reach any mind you want,
1357 01:14:05 target a lie to that specific population,and create culture wars?
1358 01:14:09 Do we want that?
1359 01:14:14 [Marco Rubio] We are a nation of people...
1360 01:14:16 that no longer speak to each other.
1361 01:14:19 We are a nation of peoplewho have stopped being friends with people
1362 01:14:23 because of who they voted forin the last election.
1363 01:14:25 We are a nation of peoplewho have isolated ourselves
1364 01:14:28 to only watch channelsthat tell us that we're right.
1365 01:14:32 My message here today is that tribalismis ruining us.
1366 01:14:37 It is tearing our country apart.
1367 01:14:40 It is no way for sane adults to act.
1368 01:14:43 If everyone's entitled to their own facts,
1369 01:14:45 there's really no need for compromise,no need for people to come together.
1370 01:14:49 In fact, there's really no needfor people to interact.
1371 01:14:52 We need to have...
1372 01:14:53 some shared understanding of reality.Otherwise, we aren't a country.
1373 01:14:58 So, uh, long-term, the solution here isto build more AI tools
1374 01:15:03 that find patterns of people usingthe services that no real person would do.
1375 01:15:08 We are allowing the technologiststo frame this as a problem
1376 01:15:11 that they're equipped to solve.
1377 01:15:15 That is... That's a lie.
1378 01:15:17 People talk about AIas if it will know truth.
1379 01:15:21 AI's not gonna solve these problems.
1380 01:15:24 AI cannot solve the problem of fake news.
1381 01:15:28 Google doesn't have the option of saying,
1382 01:15:31 "Oh, is this conspiracy? Is this truth?"Because they don't know what truth is.
1383 01:15:36 They don't have a...
1384 01:15:37 They don't have a proxy for truththat's better than a click.
1385 01:15:41 If we don't agree on what is true
1386 01:15:45 or that there is such a thing as truth,
1387 01:15:48 we're toast.
1388 01:15:49 This is the problembeneath other problems
1389 01:15:52 because if we can't agree on what's true,
1390 01:15:55 then we can't navigateout of any of our problems.
1391 01:15:57 -[ominous instrumental music playing]-[console droning]
1392 01:16:05 [Growth AI] We should suggestFlat Earth Football Club.
1393 01:16:07 [Engagement AI] Don't show himsports updates. He doesn't engage.
1394 01:16:11 [AIs speaking indistinctly]
1395 01:16:15 [music swells]
1396 01:16:39 [Jaron] A lot of people in Silicon Valleysubscribe to some kind of theory
1397 01:16:42 that we're buildingsome global super brain,
1398 01:16:45 and all of our usersare just interchangeable little neurons,
1399 01:16:48 no one of which is important.
1400 01:16:50 And it subjugates peopleinto this weird role
1401 01:16:53 where you're just, like,this little computing element
1402 01:16:56 that we're programmingthrough our behavior manipulation
1403 01:16:58 for the service of this giant brain,and you don't matter.
1404 01:17:02 You're not gonna get paid.You're not gonna get acknowledged.
1405 01:17:04 You don't have self-determination.
1406 01:17:06 We'll sneakily just manipulate youbecause you're a computing node,
1407 01:17:09 so we need to program you 'cause that'swhat you do with computing nodes.
1408 01:17:14 [reflective instrumental music playing]
1409 01:17:20 Oh, man. [sighs]
1410 01:17:21 [Tristan] When you think about technologyand it being an existential threat,
1411 01:17:25 you know, that's a big claim, and...
1412 01:17:29 it's easy to then, in your mind, think,"Okay, so, there I am with the phone...
1413 01:17:35 scrolling, clicking, using it.
1414 01:17:37 Like, where's the existential threat?
1415 01:17:40 Okay, there's the supercomputer.
1416 01:17:41 The other side of the screen,pointed at my brain,
1417 01:17:44 got me to watch one more video.Where's the existential threat?"
1418 01:17:47 [indistinct chatter]
1419 01:17:54 [Tristan] It's notabout the technology
1420 01:17:57 being the existential threat.
1421 01:18:03 It's the technology's ability
1422 01:18:06 to bring out the worst in society...[chuckles]
1423 01:18:09 ...and the worst in societybeing the existential threat.
1424 01:18:18 If technology creates...
1425 01:18:21 mass chaos,
1426 01:18:23 outrage, incivility,
1427 01:18:24 lack of trust in each other,
1428 01:18:27 loneliness, alienation, more polarization,
1429 01:18:30 more election hacking, more populism,
1430 01:18:33 more distraction and inabilityto focus on the real issues...
1431 01:18:37 that's just society. [scoffs]
1432 01:18:40 And now societyis incapable of healing itself
1433 01:18:46 and just devolving into a kind of chaos.
1434 01:18:51 This affects everyone,even if you don't use these products.
1435 01:18:55 These things have becomedigital Frankensteins
1436 01:18:57 that are terraforming the worldin their image,
1437 01:19:00 whether it's the mental health of children
1438 01:19:01 or our politicsand our political discourse,
1439 01:19:04 without taking responsibilityfor taking over the public square.
1440 01:19:07 -So, again, it comes back to---And who do you think's responsible?
1441 01:19:10 I think we haveto have the platforms be responsible
1442 01:19:13 for when they take overelection advertising,
1443 01:19:15 they're responsiblefor protecting elections.
1444 01:19:17 When they take over mental health of kidsor Saturday morning,
1445 01:19:20 they're responsiblefor protecting Saturday morning.
1446 01:19:23 The race to keep people's attentionisn't going away.
1447 01:19:28 Our technology's gonna becomemore integrated into our lives, not less.
1448 01:19:31 The AIs are gonna get better at predictingwhat keeps us on the screen,
1449 01:19:34 not worse at predictingwhat keeps us on the screen.
1450 01:19:38 I... I am 62 years old,
1451 01:19:42 getting older every minute,the more this conversation goes on...
1452 01:19:44 -[crowd chuckles]-...but... but I will tell you that, um...
1453 01:19:48 I'm probably gonna be dead and gone,and I'll probably be thankful for it,
1454 01:19:52 when all this shit comes to fruition.
1455 01:19:54 Because... Because I thinkthat this scares me to death.
1456 01:20:00 Do... Do you...Do you see it the same way?
1457 01:20:03 Or am I overreacting to a situationthat I don't know enough about?
1458 01:20:09 [interviewer]What are you most worried about?
1459 01:20:13 [sighs] I think,in the... in the shortest time horizon...
1460 01:20:19 civil war.
1461 01:20:24 If we go down the current status quofor, let's say, another 20 years...
1462 01:20:31 we probably destroy our civilizationthrough willful ignorance.
1463 01:20:34 We probably fail to meet the challengeof climate change.
1464 01:20:38 We probably degradethe world's democracies
1465 01:20:42 so that they fall into some sortof bizarre autocratic dysfunction.
1466 01:20:46 We probably ruin the global economy.
1467 01:20:48 Uh, we probably, um, don't survive.
1468 01:20:52 You know,I... I really do view it as existential.
1469 01:20:54 [helicopter blades whirring]
1470 01:21:02 [Tristan]Is this the last generation of people
1471 01:21:05 that are gonna know what it was likebefore this illusion took place?
1472 01:21:11 Like, how do you wake up from the matrixwhen you don't know you're in the matrix?
1473 01:21:14 [ominous instrumental music playing]
1474 01:21:27 [Tristan] A lot of what we're sayingsounds like it's just this...
1475 01:21:31 one-sided doom and gloom.
1476 01:21:33 Like, "Oh, my God,technology's just ruining the world
1477 01:21:36 and it's ruining kids,"
1478 01:21:38 and it's like... "No." [chuckles]
1479 01:21:40 It's confusingbecause it's simultaneous utopia...
1480 01:21:44 and dystopia.
1481 01:21:45 Like, I could hit a button on my phone,and a car shows up in 30 seconds,
1482 01:21:50 and I can go exactly where I need to go.
1483 01:21:52 That is magic. That's amazing.
1484 01:21:56 When we were making the like button,
1485 01:21:57 our entire motivation was, "Can we spreadpositivity and love in the world?"
1486 01:22:01 The idea that, fast-forward to today,and teens would be getting depressed
1487 01:22:05 when they don't have enough likes,
1488 01:22:06 or it could be leadingto political polarization
1489 01:22:08 was nowhere on our radar.
1490 01:22:09 I don't think these guys set outto be evil.
1491 01:22:13 It's just the business modelthat has a problem.
1492 01:22:15 You could shut down the serviceand destroy whatever it is--
1493 01:22:20 $20 billion of shareholder value--and get sued and...
1494 01:22:24 But you can't, in practice,put the genie back in the bottle.
1495 01:22:27 You can make some tweaks,but at the end of the day,
1496 01:22:30 you've gotta grow revenue and usage,quarter over quarter. It's...
1497 01:22:34 The bigger it gets,the harder it is for anyone to change.
1498 01:22:38 What I see is a bunch of peoplewho are trapped by a business model,
1499 01:22:43 an economic incentive,and shareholder pressure
1500 01:22:46 that makes it almost impossibleto do something else.
1501 01:22:49 I think we need to accept that it's okay
1502 01:22:51 for companies to be focusedon making money.
1503 01:22:53 What's not okayis when there's no regulation, no rules,
1504 01:22:55 and no competition,
1505 01:22:56 and the companies are actingas sort of de facto governments.
1506 01:23:00 And then they're saying,"Well, we can regulate ourselves."
1507 01:23:03 I mean, that's just a lie.That's just ridiculous.
1508 01:23:06 Financial incentives kind of runthe world,
1509 01:23:08 so any solution to this problem
1510 01:23:12 has to realign the financial incentives.
1511 01:23:16 There's no fiscal reasonfor these companies to change.
1512 01:23:18 And that is why I thinkwe need regulation.
1513 01:23:21 The phone companyhas tons of sensitive data about you,
1514 01:23:24 and we have a lot of laws that make surethey don't do the wrong things.
1515 01:23:27 We have almost no lawsaround digital privacy, for example.
1516 01:23:31 We could tax data collectionand processing
1517 01:23:34 the same way that you, for example,pay your water bill
1518 01:23:37 by monitoring the amount of waterthat you use.
1519 01:23:39 You tax these companies on the data assetsthat they have.
1520 01:23:43 It gives them a fiscal reason
1521 01:23:44 to not acquire every piece of dataon the planet.
1522 01:23:47 The law runs way behind on these things,
1523 01:23:50 but what I know is the current situationexists not for the protection of users,
1524 01:23:55 but for the protectionof the rights and privileges
1525 01:23:58 of these gigantic,incredibly wealthy companies.
1526 01:24:02 Are we always gonna defer to the richest,most powerful people?
1527 01:24:05 Or are we ever gonna say,
1528 01:24:07 "You know, there are timeswhen there is a national interest.
1529 01:24:12 There are timeswhen the interests of people, of users,
1530 01:24:15 is actually more important
1531 01:24:18 than the profits of somebodywho's already a billionaire"?
1532 01:24:21 These markets undermine democracy,and they undermine freedom,
1533 01:24:26 and they should be outlawed.
1534 01:24:29 This is not a radical proposal.
1535 01:24:31 There are other markets that we outlaw.
1536 01:24:34 We outlaw markets in human organs.
1537 01:24:37 We outlaw markets in human slaves.
1538 01:24:39 Because they haveinevitable destructive consequences.
1539 01:24:44 We live in a world
1540 01:24:45 in which a tree is worth more,financially, dead than alive,
1541 01:24:50 in a world in which a whaleis worth more dead than alive.
1542 01:24:53 For so long as our economy worksin that way
1543 01:24:56 and corporations go unregulated,
1544 01:24:58 they're going to continueto destroy trees,
1545 01:25:00 to kill whales,
1546 01:25:01 to mine the earth, and to continueto pull oil out of the ground,
1547 01:25:06 even though we knowit is destroying the planet
1548 01:25:08 and we know that it's going to leavea worse world for future generations.
1549 01:25:12 This is short-term thinking
1550 01:25:13 based on this religion of profitat all costs,
1551 01:25:16 as if somehow, magically, each corporationacting in its selfish interest
1552 01:25:20 is going to produce the best result.
1553 01:25:22 This has been affecting the environmentfor a long time.
1554 01:25:24 What's frightening,and what hopefully is the last straw
1555 01:25:27 that will make us wake upas a civilization
1556 01:25:29 to how flawed this theory has beenin the first place
1557 01:25:31 is to see that now we're the tree,we're the whale.
1558 01:25:35 Our attention can be mined.
1559 01:25:37 We are more profitable to a corporation
1560 01:25:39 if we're spending timestaring at a screen,
1561 01:25:41 staring at an ad,
1562 01:25:43 than if we're spending that timeliving our life in a rich way.
1563 01:25:45 And so, we're seeing the results of that.
1564 01:25:47 We're seeing corporations usingpowerful artificial intelligence
1565 01:25:50 to outsmart us and figure outhow to pull our attention
1566 01:25:53 toward the things they want us to look at,
1567 01:25:55 rather than the thingsthat are most consistent
1568 01:25:57 with our goals and our valuesand our lives.
1569 01:25:59 [static crackles]
1570 01:26:02 [crowd cheering]
1571 01:26:05 [Steve Jobs] What a computer is,
1572 01:26:06 is it's the most remarkable toolthat we've ever come up with.
1573 01:26:11 And it's the equivalent of a bicyclefor our minds.
1574 01:26:15 The idea of humane technology,that's where Silicon Valley got its start.
1575 01:26:21 And we've lost sight of itbecause it became the cool thing to do,
1576 01:26:25 as opposed to the right thing to do.
1577 01:26:27 The Internet was, like,a weird, wacky place.
1578 01:26:29 It was experimental.
1579 01:26:31 Creative things happened on the Internet,and certainly, they do still,
1580 01:26:34 but, like, it just feels like this,like, giant mall. [chuckles]
1581 01:26:38 You know, it's just like, "God,there's gotta be...
1582 01:26:42 there's gotta be more to it than that."
1583 01:26:44 [man typing]
1584 01:26:46 [Bailey] I guess I'm just an optimist.
1585 01:26:48 'Cause I think we can changewhat social media looks like and means.
1586 01:26:54 [Justin] The way the technology worksis not a law of physics.
1587 01:26:56 It is not set in stone.
1588 01:26:58 These are choices that human beingslike myself have been making.
1589 01:27:02 And human beings can changethose technologies.
1590 01:27:06 [Tristan] And the question now iswhether or not we're willing to admit
1591 01:27:10 that those bad outcomes are comingdirectly as a product of our work.
1592 01:27:21 It's that we built these things,and we have a responsibility to change it.
1593 01:27:28 [static crackling]
1594 01:27:37 [Tristan] The attention extraction model
1595 01:27:38 is not how we want to treathuman beings.
1596 01:27:45 [distorted] Is it just me or...
1597 01:27:49 [distorted] Poor sucker.
1598 01:27:51 [Tristan] The fabric of a healthy society
1599 01:27:53 depends on us getting offthis corrosive business model.
1600 01:27:56 [console beeps]
1601 01:27:58 [gentle instrumental music playing]
1602 01:28:01 [console whirs, grows quiet]
1603 01:28:04 [Tristan] We can demandthat these products be designed humanely.
1604 01:28:09 We can demand to not be treatedas an extractable resource.
1605 01:28:15 The intention could be:"How do we make the world better?"
1606 01:28:20 [Jaron] Throughout history,
1607 01:28:21 every single timesomething's gotten better,
1608 01:28:23 it's because somebody has come alongto say,
1609 01:28:26 "This is stupid. We can do better."[laughs]
1610 01:28:29 Like, it's the criticsthat drive improvement.
1611 01:28:33 It's the criticswho are the true optimists.
1612 01:28:37 [sighs] Hello.
1613 01:28:42 [sighs] Um...
1614 01:28:46 I mean, it seems kind of crazy, right?
1615 01:28:47 It's like the fundamental waythat this stuff is designed...
1616 01:28:52 isn't going in a good direction.[chuckles]
1617 01:28:55 Like, the entire thing.
1618 01:28:56 So, it sounds crazy to saywe need to change all that,
1619 01:29:01 but that's what we need to do.
1620 01:29:04 [interviewer] Think we're gonna get there?
1621 01:29:07 We have to.
1622 01:29:14 [tense instrumental music playing]
1623 01:29:20 [interviewer] Um,it seems like you're very optimistic.
1624 01:29:26 -Is that how I sound?-[crew laughs]
1625 01:29:27 [interviewer] Yeah, I mean...
1626 01:29:28 I can't believe you keep saying that,because I'm like, "Really?
1627 01:29:31 I feel like we're headed toward dystopia.
1628 01:29:33 I feel like we're on the fast trackto dystopia,
1629 01:29:35 and it's gonna take a miracleto get us out of it."
1630 01:29:37 And that miracle is, of course,collective will.
1631 01:29:41 I am optimisticthat we're going to figure it out,
1632 01:29:44 but I think it's gonna take a long time.
1633 01:29:47 Because not everybody recognizesthat this is a problem.
1634 01:29:50 I think one of the big failuresin technology today
1635 01:29:55 is a real failure of leadership,
1636 01:29:58 of, like, people coming outand having these open conversations
1637 01:30:02 about things that... not justwhat went well, but what isn't perfect
1638 01:30:05 so that someone can come inand build something new.
1639 01:30:08 At the end of the day, you know,
1640 01:30:10 this machine isn't gonna turn arounduntil there's massive public pressure.
1641 01:30:14 By having these conversationsand... and voicing your opinion,
1642 01:30:18 in some casesthrough these very technologies,
1643 01:30:21 we can start to change the tide.We can start to change the conversation.
1644 01:30:24 It might sound strange,but it's my world. It's my community.
1645 01:30:27 I don't hate them. I don't wanna doany harm to Google or Facebook.
1646 01:30:29 I just want to reform themso they don't destroy the world. You know?
1647 01:30:32 I've uninstalled a ton of appsfrom my phone
1648 01:30:35 that I felt were just wasting my time.
1649 01:30:37 All the social media apps,all the news apps,
1650 01:30:40 and I've turned off notifications
1651 01:30:42 on anything that was vibrating my legwith information
1652 01:30:45 that wasn't timely and important to meright now.
1653 01:30:49 It's for the same reasonI don't keep cookies in my pocket.
1654 01:30:51 Reduce the number of notificationsyou get.
1655 01:30:53 Turn off notifications.
1656 01:30:54 Turning off all notifications.
1657 01:30:56 I'm not using Google anymore,I'm using Qwant,
1658 01:30:58 which doesn't store your search history.
1659 01:31:01 Never accept a video recommended to youon YouTube.
1660 01:31:04 Always choose.That's another way to fight.
1661 01:31:07 There are tons of Chrome extensionsthat remove recommendations.
1662 01:31:12 [interviewer] You're recommendingsomething to undo what you made.
1663 01:31:15 [laughing] Yep.
1664 01:31:16 Before you share, fact-check,consider the source, do that extra Google.
1665 01:31:21 If it seems like it's something designedto really push your emotional buttons,
1666 01:31:25 like, it probably is.
1667 01:31:26 Essentially, you vote with your clicks.
1668 01:31:29 If you click on clickbait,
1669 01:31:30 you're creating a financial incentivethat perpetuates this existing system.
1670 01:31:33 Make sure that you getlots of different kinds of information
1671 01:31:37 in your own life.
1672 01:31:37 I follow people on Twitterthat I disagree with
1673 01:31:41 because I want to be exposedto different points of view.
1674 01:31:44 Notice that many peoplein the tech industry
1675 01:31:46 don't give these devicesto their own children.
1676 01:31:49 My kids don't use social media at all.
1677 01:31:51 [interviewer] Is that a rule,or is that a...
1678 01:31:53 That's a rule.
1679 01:31:55 We are zealots about it.
1680 01:31:57 We're... We're crazy.
1681 01:31:59 And we don't let our kids havereally any screen time.
1682 01:32:05 I've worked outwhat I think are three simple rules, um,
1683 01:32:08 that make life a lot easier for familiesand that are justified by the research.
1684 01:32:12 So, the first rule isall devices out of the bedroom
1685 01:32:15 at a fixed time every night.
1686 01:32:17 Whatever the time is, half an hourbefore bedtime, all devices out.
1687 01:32:20 The second rule is no social mediauntil high school.
1688 01:32:24 Personally, I think the age should be 16.
1689 01:32:26 Middle school's hard enough.Keep it out until high school.
1690 01:32:29 And the third rule iswork out a time budget with your kid.
1691 01:32:33 And if you talk with them and say,
1692 01:32:34 "Well, how many hours a daydo you wanna spend on your device?
1693 01:32:38 What do you think is a good amount?"
1694 01:32:39 they'll often saysomething pretty reasonable.
1695 01:32:42 Well, look, I know perfectly well
1696 01:32:44 that I'm not gonna get everybodyto delete their social media accounts,
1697 01:32:48 but I think I can get a few.
1698 01:32:50 And just getting a few peopleto delete their accounts matters a lot,
1699 01:32:54 and the reason why is that that createsthe space for a conversation
1700 01:32:58 because I want there to be enough peopleout in the society
1701 01:33:00 who are free of the manipulation enginesto have a societal conversation
1702 01:33:05 that isn't boundedby the manipulation engines.
1703 01:33:07 So, do it! Get out of the system.
1704 01:33:10 Yeah, delete. Get off the stupid stuff.
1705 01:33:13 The world's beautiful.Look. Look, it's great out there.
1706 01:33:17 [laughs]
1707 01:33:21 -[birds singing]-[children playing and shouting]
