反同运动的前世今生 Pray Away(2020)(CN/EN)Subtitles

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1 00:00:40 变性人追随主耶稣
2 00:01:00 嘿 女士？Hey, ma'am?
3 00:01:02 你今天需要祷告吗？ 不用了 谢谢 -Do you need any prayer today? - No, thanks.
4 00:01:05 好吧 祝你今天愉快Okay, you have a good day.
5 00:01:08 你也是You too.
6 00:01:12 嘿 各位 我想问一下 你们今晚需要祷告吗？Hey, y'all, I was gonna ask, do y'all need any prayer tonight?
7 00:01:15 我就是来为人们祈祷的 和人们分享我的见证I'm just out here praying for people, and I share my testimony with people
8 00:01:19 和人们一起祷告and pray with them.
9 00:01:22 这就是我This is me.
10 00:01:23 我之前过着变性人的生活I lived transgender before,
11 00:01:25 然后 为了跟随耶稣基督 我放弃了一切and I left everything to follow Jesus Christ.
12 00:01:29 -你们是信徒吗？ -是的-Are you believers? - Yes.
13 00:01:30 天父 感谢您今晚让我遇到了 我的姐妹们So, Father God, I just thank you for my sisters tonight,
14 00:01:33 主啊 她们都是你的信徒Lord, that I met, fellow believers in you, Jesus.
15 00:01:36 我祝福她们 奉耶稣基督的名祈祷 阿门And I just bless them, in Jesus Christs' name I pray. Amen.
16 00:01:39 阿门Amen.
17 00:01:41 这是我 我之前过着变性人的生活 沉迷毒品与酒精 而且是同性恋This was me. I lived transgender. Drugs, alcohol, and homosexuality.
18 00:01:45 我之前罪恶深重 为了跟随主 我放弃了一切I was really deep in sin, and I left everything to follow the Lord
19 00:01:49 因为他很了不起 他是全能的神 他爱我们'cause He's an amazing, powerful God, and He loves us.
20 00:01:52 所以我向其他人分享我的经历 来鼓励他们And so I just-- I share my journey with other people to encourage them.
21 00:01:56 我们倒是每天都需要祷告You know, we can always use prayer every day.
22 00:01:59 天父 奉耶稣基督的名 保佑她们Bless them, Father, in Jesus Christs' name,
23 00:02:02 跟随你、认识你 我的主 让我们了解你 阿门to follow you and to know you, Lord. Let us know you. Amen.
24 00:02:05 -阿门 -我之前像个女人一样活着- Amen. -I lived as a woman.
25 00:02:07 为了追随耶稣基督 我放弃了一切I left everything to follow Jesus Christ.
26 00:02:09 天父 让她永远不要忘记 你觉得她多重要 多爱她Let her never forget, Father, how important and loved she is to you.
27 00:02:14 奉耶稣基督的名 阿门In Jesus Christs' name. Amen.
28 00:02:17 我曾出卖肉体 和很多男人乱搞过I was promiscuous with a lot of men, prostituted my body.
29 00:02:21 我会分享福音和我生活中发生的事I share the Gospel and what happened in my life,
30 00:02:24 以及上帝如何让我放下这个性别认同 因为我一直想变成一个女人and how God set me free from this identity 'cause I was trying to become a woman.
31 00:02:28 而我不是女人 我是个男人I'm not a woman. I'm a man.
32 00:02:29 天父 感谢你所做的一切Father, I just thank you for everything you've done.
33 00:02:32 圣父、圣子耶稣 还有你 圣灵By the Father, by the Son, Jesus, and by you, Holy Spirit.
34 00:02:36 奉耶稣基督的名 阿门In Jesus Christs' name. Amen.
35 00:02:43 所以这原本应该是我So, this would have been me.
36 00:02:45 上面写着“被束缚”和“获得自由”It says, "in bondage" and "set free."
37 00:02:49 对我来说 耶稣最重要的就是真理The biggest things that Jesus is to me is truth.
38 00:02:53 当你知道真相的时候 真相会让你得自由When you know the truth, the truth sets you free.
39 00:02:58 我相信圣经I believe the Bible,
40 00:03:00 这些人必不能承受神的国that these people will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
41 00:03:05 圣经
42 00:03:07 我相信人是可以改变的I do believe that people can change
43 00:03:10 他们对于性的认知是可以焕然一新 且恢复常态的and have a refreshing, renewing over their whole sexuality.
44 00:03:16 圣灵能给你新的欲望和需求The Holy Spirit can give you new desires and wants.
45 00:03:19 耶稣可以改变你Jesus can transform you.
46 00:03:34 NETFLIX 原创纪录片
47 00:04:16 第一条 标记Take one, marker.
48 00:04:20 -这样可以吗？ -可以- Are you good with that? - Yeah.
49 00:04:28 我们曾是前同性恋运动的领导人We were the leaders of the ex-gay movement.
50 00:04:32 我们相信同性恋非常不正常We believed that there was something desperately wrong,
51 00:04:35 是一种病态that there was something pathological about it,
52 00:04:37 不是一个人该有的正常状态that it was not your normal state,
53 00:04:40 也不是上帝的意图wasn't what God intended,
54 00:04:41 一定是发生了什么事“让人变弯了”that something must have happened to "make you gay."
55 00:04:45 我们曾经真的相信We really believed
56 00:04:47 同性恋者的灵魂可以被拯救that gay people could be saved.
57 00:04:50 这是圣经的箴言This is what the Bible says.
58 00:04:53 圣经说有些人是同性恋 对吧？It says that some of you were homosexuals, right?
59 00:04:55 但是你已经改变了 接受了洗礼 也发生了转变But you've changed. You've been washed. You've been transformed.
60 00:04:58 我们曾相信我们的行为就是正确的We believed what we were doing was the right thing,
61 00:05:02 要继续追求改变to continue pursuing change,
62 00:05:04 如果你不想做同性恋 也是有办法解决的and if you didn't want to be gay, that there was a way out for you also.
63 00:05:08 我们当时在做我们认为 上帝希望我们做的事情We were doing what we thought God wanted us to do.
64 00:05:12 反 同 运 动 的前 世 今 生
65 00:05:25 内华达州，雷诺市
66 00:05:39 谁来负责鸡蛋？ 不 放到那边 All right, who wants to do the eggs? No, it goes in there.
67 00:05:42 伊万特坎图施耐德谁来负责鸡蛋？ 不 放到那边
68 00:05:42 伊万特坎图施耐德
69 00:05:47 我只需要一个鸡蛋和蛋黄I just need an egg and the yolk,
70 00:05:50 所以你必须把蛋白和蛋黄分开so you have to separate the white from the yolk.
71 00:05:53 -这要怎么做？ -天啊-How are you supposed to do that? - Oh my gosh.
72 00:05:56 我现在都没什么信心了- -I have very little confidence right now.
73 00:05:58 哇Wow.
74 00:06:02 你已经把蛋黄打破了！And you broke the yolk already!
75 00:06:05 好吧Okay.
76 00:06:10 -可以动一下吗？ -好- Is it possible to move? - Yes.
77 00:06:14 很好Great.
78 00:06:15 -这样可以吗？ -可以 -Are you good with that? -Yeah.
79 00:06:18 这个麦克风能用了吗？ 还不行 所以…-Is this mic working? - No, not really, so…
80 00:06:21 那我就再向前一点Then I'm just gonna lean forward a little bit more.
81 00:06:25 你用了六年时间 练习过女同性恋的生活You spent six years as a practicing lesbian.
82 00:06:29 我喜欢“练习”这个词I like that word, "practicing."
83 00:06:31 你为什么用“练习”一词？ 你想要在什么方面变得完美？What do you mean, "practicing?" What are you trying to get perfect?
84 00:06:36 “练习”女同性恋是指 我一直在过女同性恋的生活方式"Practicing" lesbian means that I was actually in the lifestyle
85 00:06:40 而不仅仅在纠结那种感觉and not just struggling with the feelings.
86 00:06:43 所以我亲身投入到了 女同性恋的感情生活中So I was actually involved in lesbian relationships.
87 00:06:49 伊万特 你能不能和 困在这种生活方式中的那些人Yvette, would you just talk from your heart
88 00:06:51 发自内心地谈一谈？to those that are trapped in the lifestyle?
89 00:06:56 我知道这很难Well, I know that it is difficult.
90 00:06:59 我花了三年时间才克服了 同性间的吸引力It took me three years just to overcome same-sex attractions.
91 00:07:03 因为在教会中我身边And it was because I was surrounded by people in the church
92 00:07:06 都是真心爱我的人who really loved me.
93 00:07:08 但上帝真的治愈了我内心女性的一面But God really healing the feminine within me
94 00:07:12 并让我看到他喜欢女性的妩媚and showing me that the feminine is something that he loves,
95 00:07:16 是他所创造出来的存在that it's something that He created.
96 00:07:18 他是唯一能抚慰心灵深处的人He's the only one who can touch those deep places.
97 00:07:23 讲得真好That was wonderful.
98 00:07:33 我花了很多时间思考： “我怎么会相信那种事？”I spent a lot of time thinking, "How did I believe that?"
99 00:07:39 以及“我是如何 沉浸在其中这么久的？”and "How was I involved in it for so long?"
100 00:07:43 我直到27岁才开始去教堂I didn't come into the church until I was 27.
101 00:07:48 而我开始And the reason
102 00:07:50 去教堂 并成为基督徒的原因I started going to church and became a Christian
103 00:07:54 是我在寻找一些东西was I was looking for something.
104 00:07:58 这简直太壮观了That's absolutely spectacular.
105 00:08:02 我以前从没有过那种无忧无虑的日子 从未觉得自己所向睥睨 I didn't really have those carefree days where you think nothing can touch you.
106 00:08:08 死亡总是很普遍 就在不远处 Death was always prevalent, and it was right there.
107 00:08:16 1990年
108 00:08:30 在艾滋病危机期间 我有17个朋友死于艾滋病I had had 17 friends die of AIDS during the AIDS crisis.
109 00:08:36 我最好的朋友艾德 他的伴侣也是My best friend Ed, his partner was also,
110 00:08:41 在他们有健康问题的时候 我帮助过他们and sort of helped them when they were having health problems.
111 00:08:45 那时我20多岁 就发生了这些事情And I was in my twenties, and this is what was happening.
112 00:08:50 让人不禁会担心自己爱的人When you're just wondering if the people that you love
113 00:08:53 会不会不久之后又出现在这里are gonna be here the next day and the day after that.
114 00:09:00 我相信上帝不会审判人 上帝只会审判罪 I believe that God does not judge people. God judges sin.
115 00:09:04 而且我相信艾滋病And I do believe that AIDS,
116 00:09:06 杰瑞·福尔韦尔高人气电视福音布道人
117 00:09:06 一般被认为 是由同性恋性乱交引起的… generally caused and believed to be caused by homosexual promiscuity,
118 00:09:10 杰瑞·福尔韦尔高人气电视福音布道人
119 00:09:10 …这违反了上帝的律法 自然法则与礼仪规范is a violation of God's laws, laws of nature and decency,
120 00:09:13 因此 我们违反上帝的律法时 就要付出代价and as a result, we pay the price when we violate the laws of God.
121 00:09:28 所以进入到一个组织完善So to go into a church situation that is very structured,
122 00:09:33 规则非常明确的教会中and the rules are very clear,
123 00:09:35 是一种解脱 这正是我的感受it's a relief, and I-- and that's exactly how I felt.
124 00:09:40 这是一种解脱It was a relief.
125 00:09:45 1976年
126 00:09:56 在我成长的年代 成为同性恋I grew up in a time when it was a crime,
127 00:09:59 是一种犯罪行为a sickness,
128 00:10:01 一种病态、一种罪恶and a sin to be gay.
129 00:10:06 我迫切想要改变I wanted desperately to change.
130 00:10:07 我儿时因此事遭到霸凌的时候 就想改变I had wanted to change since I was a kid getting bullied for it.
131 00:10:12 我们在阿纳海姆的教会非常庞大Our church was a great big megachurch that I was attending in Anaheim,
132 00:10:13 迈克尔·布西出埃及联合创始人
133 00:10:15 迈克尔·布西出埃及联合创始人
134 00:10:15 他们还为离婚人士 以及酗酒或吸毒的人and they had support groups for divorced people
135 00:10:18 迈克尔·布西出埃及联合创始人
136 00:10:18 设立了互助团体and people that were struggling with alcoholism or drug abuse,
137 00:10:20 我当时想：“怎么可能没有像我这样and I thought, "How come there's no group for people like me,
138 00:10:23 受到同性吸引的人？”that have gay feelings?"
139 00:10:26 于是 So,
140 00:10:27 我就想在我们当地的教堂 成立一个互助团体 I got the idea of starting a support group within our own local church.
141 00:10:39 大家都觉得这是一种极大的解脱Everybody felt that this was a wonderful relief,
142 00:10:43 他们再也不用一个人挣扎了that they didn't have to struggle alone anymore.
143 00:10:45 他们不需要假装只有自己有这种感受 They didn't have to pretend-- They didn't have to pretend they were the only one.
144 00:10:50 但我们真的相信 如果你让此想法常驻心房But we really believed that if you kept repeating it,
145 00:10:54 一直认为上帝会改变你 那么上帝真的会 if you kept claiming that God was changing you, that He would.
146 00:11:01 当时我们以为我们是全国唯一一个 这样的互助团体 At that time, we thought we were the only support group like it in the country.
147 00:11:05 但后来我们开始听说 还有其他一些像我们这样的小教会But then we began to hear that there were other small ministries like ours
148 00:11:08 在国内不同地方自发地涌现出来that were popping up kind of spontaneously in different parts of the country.
149 00:11:14 我们想：“把这些小教会聚集起来 一起讨论一下我们的目的And we thought, "Wouldn't it be cool to get together these small ministries
150 00:11:19 以及接下来会怎么样and discuss together what we were trying to do
151 00:11:22 应该很不错吧？and what should happen next?"
152 00:11:25 于是 在1976年 我们决定聚集起来 在阿纳海姆召开一次会议So we decided to get together and form a conference in Anaheim in 1976,
153 00:11:30 那就是出埃及这个组织诞生的地方and that's where the organization Exodus was born.
154 00:11:33 出埃及宣传视频
155 00:11:44 出埃及
156 00:11:47 不快乐与同性恋 ？
157 00:11:48 然后基督徒们的信件And then letters started pouring in
158 00:11:50 开始源源不断地寄过来 他们求助无门from Christians who had no place else to go
159 00:11:54 突然间听说这个组织and suddenly were hearing about this organization
160 00:11:57 也许能够帮助他们that might be able to help them.
161 00:12:01 那时候有成千上万的人 在寻找像出埃及这样的组织There were thousands of people that were looking for a group like Exodus.
162 00:12:06 请 加 入出 埃 及！
163 00:12:06 请 加 入出 埃 及！
164 00:12:10 60分钟
165 00:12:12 生 存
166 00:12:12 这在过去是不可想象的It was once unthinkable,
167 00:12:13 1998年这在过去是不可想象的
168 00:12:14 生 存
169 00:12:14 但今天在全美国人的家庭中都发生了but today it happens in households all over America.
170 00:12:17 生 存
171 00:12:17 一个孩子来吃早餐 然后说： “妈妈 爸爸 我觉得我是同性恋A child comes to breakfast and says, "Mom, Dad, I think I'm gay,
172 00:12:19 生 存
173 00:12:22 生 存
174 00:12:22 但是我不想做同性恋”but I don't want to be."
175 00:12:23 生 存
176 00:12:23 很多家长正在了解 一个名为出埃及的基督教项目Some parents are learning about a Christian program called Exodus,
177 00:12:27 该项目宣称要改变同性恋者的性取向which claims to convert gays,
178 00:12:29 通过圣经学习、行为矫正 和朋辈咨询等课程make them ex-gays with a course of Bible study,
179 00:12:32 让他们摆脱同性恋想法的困扰behavior modification, and peer counseling.
180 00:12:35 出埃及组织成立于21年前 约翰保克是该组织的副主席John Paulk is vice president of Exodus, which was founded 21 years ago.
181 00:12:40 -你现在是异性恋？是吗？ -我是-Are you straight now? -I am. -You are? -I am.
182 00:12:42 你不是那种 每天跟自己对抗的同性恋？You're not a gay person who fights with yourself every day?
183 00:12:46 不是No.
184 00:12:47 不会对男人有性幻想吗？You're not a person who fantasizes about men?
185 00:12:49 -不会 -从来都不会有？-No. -Never?
186 00:12:50 如果我内心觉得自己像个同性恋I never would have gotten married
187 00:12:53 我绝对不会结婚if I felt on the inside like a gay person.
188 00:12:58 以这方式出名很有意思It's funny what to be known for,
189 00:13:01 但在某一时刻 我真的是世界上最出名的but at one point, I really was the most famous ex-gay person
190 00:13:03 约翰·保克前董事会主席
191 00:13:05 约翰·保克前董事会主席
192 00:13:06 前同性恋者in the world.
193 00:13:07 约翰·保克前董事会主席
194 00:13:09 我在全国名声大噪I arose to national prominence
195 00:13:12 因为我是一个非常善于表达的人because I'm a very articulate person.
196 00:13:16 我很会说话 性格外向So, I'm articulate, I'm outgoing,
197 00:13:19 我无所畏惧 我站了出来I was fearless, I stood out in front,
198 00:13:23 成为了一位名誉领袖and I became a figurehead.
199 00:13:27 我是这场运动的知名人物I was the visible person for this movement.
200 00:13:30 他娶的女人是他在出埃及中 认识的前女同性恋The woman he married is a former lesbian he met at Exodus,
201 00:13:34 现在他们有了一个男孩and now they have a baby boy.
202 00:13:36 同性恋的新生 ？
203 00:13:38 有很多领导人There were many leaders,
204 00:13:40 但是我的故事可以直接拿来借鉴 因为我可是娶了but I was the visual aid because I had this extreme story
205 00:13:43 一位前女同性恋of married to an ex-lesbian.
206 00:13:46 我们不断参加电视节目、脱口秀I mean, we were constantly barraged to be on shows, and talk shows,
207 00:13:50 上报纸、新闻节目等等到处露脸 and this newspaper, and that news program, -and on, and on, and on. -
208 00:13:56 认识一下约翰保克和安妮爱德华Meet John Paulk and Anne Edward.
209 00:13:58 他们曾经都是同性恋At one time, they were both gay.
210 00:14:00 现在他们深爱着对方 他们已经订婚了Now they are so in love with each other, they're engaged to be married.
211 00:14:04 你们俩都找到上帝 并说： “我不想再当同性恋了”是吗？Both of you find God and say, "I want to not be gay anymore"?
212 00:14:09 不管你是同性恋还是什么Whether you're gay or whatever you're into,
213 00:14:11 都改变不了上帝爱你的事实it doesn't change the fact God loves you,
214 00:14:13 但这不是上帝创造你的本意but this was not God's original intent for you.
215 00:14:17 我成为了出埃及的董事会主席I had become the chairman of the board of Exodus.
216 00:14:20 我的职责就是告诉大家：My role was to get the message out
217 00:14:24 同性恋是可以改变的that homosexuality was changeable.
218 00:14:28 我认为改变是不可能的I don't believe that change is possible.
219 00:14:30 我相信同性恋和异性恋一样I believe that homosexuality, just like heterosexuality,
220 00:14:33 是上帝的恩赐is a gift from God.
221 00:14:34 这不就是说恋童癖无法改变Would that be like saying a child molester can't change,
222 00:14:37 或者对妻子家暴不能改变吗？or a wife-beater can't change?
223 00:14:39 等一下 同性恋不等于恋童癖Well, that's-- Now wait a second. Being gay is not being a child molester.
224 00:14:42 不 我没有比较这两件事 我是说这是一种特定的行为No, I-- I'm not comparing it to that. I'm saying it's a certain behavior.
225 00:14:46 有些行为与同性恋有关There is behavior that's connected with homosexuality.
226 00:14:49 我们只是想说 如果你想改变And we're just saying that if you want to change,
227 00:14:52 是有办法做到的there is a way to do it.
228 00:14:59 出埃及团体有100多个组织This Exodus group is one of more than 100 organizations
229 00:15:02 在帮助希望过异性恋生活的 同性恋群体working with gays who want to lead straight lives.
230 00:15:07 我们认为同性恋是一种需要治疗的 心理疾病 We believed that homosexuality is a psychological illness that you needed treatment for.
231 00:15:13 现在心理学Those psychological beliefs,
232 00:15:14 和精神病学界的每个人都同意 这些精神信仰everybody now in the psychological, psychiatric community would agree,
233 00:15:18 是过时的 是完全错误的are outdated and completely wrong.
234 00:15:22 但出埃及组织在鼎盛时期是最大的But Exodus, at its peak, was the largest organization
235 00:15:27 推广修复疗法或转化疗法的组织promoting reparative therapy or conversion therapy.
236 00:15:35 前同性恋者互助团体
237 00:15:41 我参加了660天的爱之行动计划I've been in Love In Action Program for 660 days.
238 00:15:41 我参加了660天的爱之行动计划I've been in Love In Action Program for 660 days.
239 00:15:44 我对同性性行为 和强迫性性行为无能为力My powerlessness over homosexuality and compulsive sexual behavior
240 00:15:48 这让我陷入了自慰、互相自慰has led me into masturbation, mutual masturbation,
241 00:15:52 短期和长期的同性恋关系short-term and long-term homosexual relationships…
242 00:15:56 在转化疗法中 对于成为同性恋的解释In conversion therapy, the explanation for why you are gay
243 00:16:00 是你小时候一定受过心理创伤is that you must've been traumatized as a child.
244 00:16:03 要么是直接的虐待Either by direct abuse,
245 00:16:06 性骚扰、父母的身体虐待sexual molestation, physical abuse by parents,
246 00:16:10 缺少父母的爱 或以不正确的方式被养育or by inadequate or toxic parenting.
247 00:16:14 如果你能解决这些养育问题If you can resolve those parenting issues,
248 00:16:18 那你天生的异性恋本质就会出现then your innate heterosexuality will emerge.
249 00:16:21 爸 爸那你天生的异性恋本质就会出现
250 00:16:21 爸 爸
251 00:16:22 我觉得我和爸爸的关系恢复了 我们和好了I feel restored and reconciled with my relationship with my dad.
252 00:16:36 因为上帝所带来的治愈'Cause God has brought a lot of healing.
253 00:16:39 -我爱你 格伦 -我们爱你 格伦We love you, Glen. I love you.
254 00:16:42 很少有领导人接受过任何在心理学Very few of the leaders had any kind of formal education
255 00:16:46 心理咨询、人类性教育方面的 正规教育in psychology, counseling, human sexuality.
256 00:16:51 他们没有资格做他们所做的事情They had no qualifications to do what they were doing.
257 00:16:55 我们咨询的很多人都有恐慌症A lot of the people that we were counseling had panic attacks
258 00:16:59 和深度抑郁症and deep depression.
259 00:17:02 有些人甚至试图过量服药We had guys that actually attempted overdose,
260 00:17:05 试图自杀attempted suicide
261 00:17:08 因为他们因无法改变而感到内疚because they felt guilty that they couldn't change.
262 00:17:16 我无法继续假装自己在改变I couldn't continue to pretend that I was changing.
263 00:17:22 我也不能继续假装我“帮助”的人 正在改变 And I couldn't continue to pretend the people I was "helping" were changing.
264 00:17:28 我想：“好 够了 我在伤害别人” And I thought, "Okay, this is enough." "I'm harming people."
265 00:17:34 我在1979年离开的时候But when I left in 1979,
266 00:17:36 出埃及一直在发展壮大Exodus kept growing.
267 00:17:48 华盛顿特区
268 00:17:53 朱莉罗杰斯
269 00:17:59 我们会一起拍很多照片We'll take a lot of pictures together.
270 00:18:01 主要是抓拍 -It's mainly, like, candids of people. - Mm-hmm.
271 00:18:11 我们的节奏非常慢 不着急We do things in a very slower pace, like, no rush.
272 00:18:14 我们先摆拍几张 但之后你们就做自己的事We do this guided, but then you do your own thing
273 00:18:18 表现出有目的性 且自然的感觉出来 for an intentional, natural look.
274 00:18:21 我们要看镜头吗？Are we looking at the camera?
275 00:18:24 -你可以把手放在这里 -我的手？Put your hand here.
276 00:18:26 像这样-My hand? -Like that.
277 00:18:29 我做不来I can't do it.
278 00:18:41 阿曼达和朱莉
279 00:18:42 我们的婚礼网站 70天 宝贝 - Our wedding website. - Seventy days, babe.
280 00:18:45 有次我在参加活动 有人问我：“你老婆呢？”So, I was at an event, and someone was like, "Where's your wife?"
281 00:18:48 我说：“是未婚妻 但很快就会是老婆了”And I was like, "Fiancée! But soon to be."
282 00:18:51 她说：“你们还没结婚？ 我们都以为你们结婚了”She's like, "You're not married? We all thought you were married."
283 00:18:54 是啊Yeah, I know.
284 00:18:55 人们以为我们一年前就结婚了People thought we were married like a year ago.
285 00:18:57 我不知道怎么回事 也许我们看起来像结婚了？I don't know how. Maybe we just seem married?
286 00:18:59 可能是因为我们不太社交 一直喜欢跟猫一起玩Probably 'cause we're not social and hang out with our cats all the time.
287 00:19:02 -就是猫的原因 -是这样吗？-It's the cats. -Is that what it is?
288 00:19:04 绝对是因为猫 对- It's totally the cats. Yep. -
289 00:19:08 嗨！Hi!
290 00:19:11 你好吗？How are you?
291 00:19:12 我觉得我对你们的婚礼 比对你俩更上心I think I'm more gushy about your wedding than you guys are.
292 00:19:15 这条裙子 我觉得太好看了 太美了The dress, I think, is stunning.
293 00:19:18 你有没有祖传的东西Do you have any family heirlooms,
294 00:19:20 或者任何能让你想起祖母的东西or anything that reminds you of a grandmother,
295 00:19:22 或者家里其它很有意义的东西or something that's significant in your family as well,
296 00:19:25 可以放在你的花束或头发上？you can put into your bouquet, or you can put into your hair?
297 00:19:28 把你心爱之人的物品带在身上时Those are little moments to carry your loved ones with you,
298 00:19:31 就像他们在你身边一样甜蜜just as a sweetness to have them there.
299 00:19:37 1993年
300 00:19:40 我的童年很快乐I was a happy kid.
301 00:19:42 1993年
302 00:19:45 我家占地120亩 后面有个池塘My family lived on three acres of land with a pond in the back,
303 00:19:49 我常在那里撒欢and I just got to run wild.
304 00:19:56 我们去圣经教堂、浸信会教堂We went to Bible churches, Baptist churches.
305 00:19:59 我对世界的了解全都出自于那里That was the only story I knew about the world,
306 00:20:03 原教旨主义的基督教教义说 上帝创造了世界the fundamentalist Christian teaching that said God created the world,
307 00:20:08 上帝是慈爱的上帝and God is a loving God.
308 00:20:10 我在其中发现了很多美And I found a lot of beauty in it, um,
309 00:20:13 譬如上帝创造了鱼塘the idea that God created the fishing pond,
310 00:20:15 星星和风等等and the stars, and the wind, and all that,
311 00:20:17 还有耶稣很爱我们 他想要和我们在一起and the idea that Jesus loved us enough to want to be with us.
312 00:20:23 所以我想成为耶稣的朋友So I wanted to be Jesus' friend.
313 00:20:26 我想做个好孩子I wanted to be good.
314 00:20:31 我们生活中的每一件事 都从保守派基督徒的方面出发Every single thing in our life was conservative Christians.
315 00:20:35 我妈妈听从 所有真正保守派基督教的领袖My mom was listening to all the real conservative Christian leaders
316 00:20:40 他们说他们有一个世俗议程 是为了小孩子设立的who said there's a secular agenda, and they're coming for your children.
317 00:20:44 你能想象五岁的孩子Can you imagine five-year-olds
318 00:20:46 他们的小手交叉放在膝盖上with their little hands folded in their laps
319 00:20:46 詹姆斯多布森博士高人气电视福音布道人
320 00:20:48 詹姆斯多布森博士高人气电视福音布道人
321 00:20:48 听他们的老师谈论…while their teacher talks to them
322 00:20:50 詹姆斯多布森博士高人气电视福音布道人
323 00:20:52 …成人的变态性行为吗？ about adult perverse sexuality?
324 00:20:53 …成人的变态性行为吗？ about adult perverse sexuality?
325 00:20:54 同性恋是一种道德堕落 永远都是错误的Homosexuality is moral perversion and is always wrong,
326 00:20:55 杰里法威尔高人气电视福音布道人
327 00:20:58 杰里法威尔高人气电视福音布道人
328 00:20:59 永远period.
329 00:21:00 杰里法威尔高人气电视福音布道人
330 00:21:01 圣经中有关这一主题的每个陈述Every scriptural statement on the subject
331 00:21:04 都是谴责的陈述is a statement of condemnation.
332 00:21:07 我听到的关于同性恋的主要评价是 “他们很恶心” The main messages I heard about gay people were like, "They're disgusting."
333 00:21:11 总是有种感觉 “同性恋真的很坏It was just always this sense of, "The gays are really, really bad."
334 00:21:15 很脏、很可怕、很坏”"Dirty, and scary, and bad."
335 00:21:22 我16岁时向我妈妈坦白出柜I came out to my mom when I was 16,
336 00:21:25 因为我可能是同性恋这件事 我妈很抓狂and my mom was frantic that she has a potentially gay kid.
337 00:21:31 她带我去见一个叫里奇切莱特的人She took me to go meet with this guy named Ricky Chelette.
338 00:21:36 我那时真的不想见他I really didn't want to meet him.
339 00:21:38 我只是觉得很尴尬、很奇怪It just felt awkward, and weird,
340 00:21:41 而且不太可能奏效and unlikely to work.
341 00:21:48 乡 村甜甜圈
342 00:21:54 第一 浸信会 教堂
343 00:21:55 生命之光出埃及附属教会
344 00:22:03 我很荣幸今天早上能和你们在一起Good morning. I am so honored to be with you this morning.
345 00:22:03 里奇切莱特生命之光执行董事
346 00:22:05 里奇切莱特生命之光执行董事
347 00:22:06 我们走进去 里奇走出来 他说：“你一定是朱莉”So we walk in, and Ricky walks out,
348 00:22:11 里奇切莱特生命之光执行董事
349 00:22:11 他跟我握了手 and he's like, "You must be Julie." And he shakes my hand.
350 00:22:12 里奇切莱特生命之光执行董事
351 00:22:12 他先问了我几个介绍性的问题He first asked me a few introductory questions,
352 00:22:12 他先问了我几个介绍性的问题He first asked me a few introductory questions,
353 00:22:14 来缓和紧张的气氛just to try to ease the tension.
354 00:22:16 我想和你谈谈恩典和真理I want to talk to you about grace and truth. Grace and truth.
355 00:22:20 我特别想和你们谈谈恩典和真理And I want to particularly talk to you about grace and truth
356 00:22:23 因为我认为我们所处的文化环境中because I think we're in a cultural situation
357 00:22:25 恩典和真理很难找到 尤其是真理in which grace and truth is hard to find, especially truth.
358 00:22:30 他有很多可擦的记号笔And he has all these dry-erase markers.
359 00:22:33 他讲了一大堆关于人们最终是如何He goes through this whole theory
360 00:22:36 与同性吸引做斗争的理论of how people end up struggling with same-sex attractions.
361 00:22:39 他把所有内容全画出来了He draws it all out.
362 00:22:41 一个小妈妈 一个小爸爸 一个小孩子出生了A little mom and a little dad and a little kid's born,
363 00:22:43 然后他就在做这些事and then, like, he's doing all this, and so,
364 00:22:46 他基本在说一个男孩变成了同性恋essentially, like, a boy becomes gay
365 00:22:49 因为他和他父亲的关系不好because he has a bad relationship with his dad,
366 00:22:52 而且对和自己同性别的家长 有一种神秘感and there's a sense of mystery towards the same-sex parent,
367 00:22:55 等他们到了青春期 这就变成了性取向and when they get to adolescence, that becomes sexualized.
368 00:23:01 我问他： “如果你和同性别的家长关系很好I asked him, like, "What if you have a great relationship
369 00:23:03 还是觉得自己是同性恋呢？”with your same-sex parent, you know, and you still feel gay?"
370 00:23:06 他说：“这时候就得提提未知因素了”And he was like, "That's where the wild card comes in."
371 00:23:09 于是他谈到了性虐待And so he talks about sexual abuse.
372 00:23:12 那没有被性虐待过的人呢？"Well, what about people who haven't been sexually abused?"
373 00:23:15 他说：“很多时候是人们忘记了”And then he's like, "Well, a lot of times people forget it."
374 00:23:19 我没有理由相信那是错的I had no reason to believe it was wrong.
375 00:23:22 我还没听过其他关于 人们如何成为同性恋的理论I hadn't heard other theories of how people end up gay.
376 00:23:25 我才16岁 所以我不…And I'm 16, so I'm not like--
377 00:23:26 我根本不懂这方面的研究I literally know no science around any of this.
378 00:23:29 他讲出来的东西对我来说很有道理 我说 ：“是的”And what he drew out, like, made sense to me. I was like, "Yeah."
379 00:23:33 我知道我们的方向 我们要像耶稣那样I know where we're going. We're going toward Jesus.
380 00:23:35 你想不想和我们一起走Do you want to come walk with us
381 00:23:37 直到我们都变成耶稣那样？until we're both transformed to look just like Him?
382 00:23:40 这就是我希望你会做的That's what I hope you'll do.
383 00:23:41 里奇比较年长 更聪明 擅长和孩子相处Ricky was a little bit older, wiser, really good with kids.
384 00:23:46 就像有一位似乎对我的生活 很感兴趣的导师 It was sort of like having a mentor that seemed to take interest in, like, my life.
385 00:23:53 那时候我还不知道我能不能变成直的 I still didn't know at that point if I could become straight. Like, I didn't know,
386 00:23:57 但我觉得我可以全身心地投入 成为一名虔诚的信徒but I felt like I could devote myself to being a whole-hearted believer.
387 00:24:03 这是向善的道路This is the path to be good.
388 00:24:05 所以And so,
389 00:24:07 我接受了I took it.
390 00:24:15 杰弗里麦卡尔
391 00:24:19 当我成为耶稣信徒的时候When I found Jesus,
392 00:24:20 当我成为耶稣信徒的时候When I found Jesus,
393 00:24:20 我第一次找到了一个真正爱我的人I found for the first time someone who really loved me.
394 00:24:26 从那个时期开始From that period forward,
395 00:24:28 主开始向我心中传达一个信息 我需要开始分享自己的故事the Lord started putting on my heart, "You need to start sharing your story."
396 00:24:44 欢 迎 来 到
397 00:24:48 大家都好吗？How's everybody doing?
398 00:24:50 很好- Good. - Good.
399 00:24:52 我非常激动并谦卑地 邀请到了杰弗里来这里I'm very excited and humbled to have, um, Jeffrey here.
400 00:24:55 你们会喜欢这位兄弟的 他非常了不起Y'all are gonna love this brother. He's amazing.
401 00:24:58 来吧 兄弟！Come on, boy!
402 00:25:00 兄弟 我爱你Man, I love you.
403 00:25:01 我们也欢迎一下在线观众好吗？Can we give our online audience a welcome, too?
404 00:25:09 我努力不让自己哭出来I'm trying so hard not to cry.
405 00:25:11 我很感谢你 杰弗里I'm just thankful for you, Jeffrey.
406 00:25:13 你是上天赐予的礼物 圣灵的眷顾You are a gift from heaven, for what God's doing in the Spirit.
407 00:25:16 无论你走到哪里That everywhere you plant your feet,
408 00:25:19 都会是上帝会在同性恋群体中it is a sign that God is about to release revival
409 00:25:22 重新振兴的标志on the gay community.
410 00:25:24 我很感谢你And I'm just thankful for you.
411 00:25:36 所以 天父 我感谢你So Father, I thank you.
412 00:25:38 他是你为这一代人所做工作的That he is a first fruit of the work you're doing
413 00:25:40 第一位受益者for this generation.
414 00:25:42 圣灵 我请求你释放激情Holy Spirit, I ask that you would release fire,
415 00:25:45 神化他的口才 让他分享你的心anoint his tongue to share your heart,
416 00:25:48 让他成为你独一无二的人like only He can.
417 00:25:50 我请求你倾听 打破成见And I ask that you would open ears, break stereotypes,
418 00:25:53 摒弃众人批判 显现耶稣break narratives, and reveal Jesus.
419 00:25:56 阿门Amen.
420 00:25:57 阿门 我爱你 兄弟- Amen. - Love you, brother.
421 00:26:07 我在21世纪初上高中长大成人的时候When I grew up in high school in the early 2000s,
422 00:26:11 这个国家的同性恋问题 发生了翻天覆地的变化everything was shifting in the nation with homosexuality.
423 00:26:15 《威尔与格蕾丝》 是当时最盛大的演出Will & Grace was the biggest show.
424 00:26:17 每部高中电影的主角 都有个同性恋好友Every high school movie had the gay best friend.
425 00:26:19 那时候我把自己的认同代入了进去 成为了同性恋And that's what I put my identity in, being homosexual.
426 00:26:22 那就是我的性别认同-That was-- That was my identity. - Wow.
427 00:26:24 在性少数群体中 这就是他们的认同And in the LGBTQ community, that is their identity.
428 00:26:27 我是男同性恋 我是女同性恋 我是变性人I'm gay. I'm lesbian. I'm transgender.
429 00:26:30 为什么这有如此强大的力量 控制着他们？Why does it have such a powerful stronghold over them?
430 00:26:33 因为是魔鬼想让他们认为 那是他们的认同Because it's the enemy trying to make them think that's their identity.
431 00:26:36 没有其他组织会这么说- Yeah. -No other group says things like that.
432 00:26:39 很多学校都在推动这些事情 他们想让人们服用激素A lot of these schools are pushing that. They want people to get on hormones
433 00:26:44 或者开始做手术 切割他们的身体or start having the surgeries and chopping up their body.
434 00:26:47 所以给孩子选择学校一定要小心And so, you need to be very careful where you send your children to school.
435 00:26:50 -没错 -对That's true.
436 00:26:51 你需要找到You need to find somewhere
437 00:26:53 孩子们不会被建议做手术的地方they won't be counseling people to chop up their body.
438 00:27:07 当我进入教会时 都会遵守规矩When I got into the church, I just followed the rules.
439 00:27:11 这就是你要做的This is what you do.
440 00:27:12 你会读圣经 相信圣经的内容You read the Bible, and you believe what the Bible says.
441 00:27:17 然后一切就变成了And then, it became a matter of,
442 00:27:21 领导者是特殊人物well, the leaders are the special ones.
443 00:27:23 为了加入这个特殊的团体 我必须好好表现I have to perform in order to be in this special group.
444 00:27:27 为了我的努力得到认可和肯定I have to perform in order to be recognized
445 00:27:31 我必须好好表现and affirmed the way that I want to be.
446 00:27:35 1994年
447 00:27:38 在早些时候In the early days,
448 00:27:39 1994年
449 00:27:39 我在拉古纳岗的筹款会议上发言I spoke at a fundraising meeting in Laguna Hills.
450 00:27:42 我在拉古纳岗的筹款会议上发言I spoke at a fundraising meeting in Laguna Hills.
451 00:27:45 我非常想邀请伊万特发言…I very much wanted to have Yvette speak…
452 00:27:47 房子里挤满了人 让我很紧张 The house was packed, which made me really nervous.
453 00:27:52 我为此准备了很长时间And I had prepared for a long time for this
454 00:27:55 因为我希望表现得完美'cause I wanted it to be perfect.
455 00:27:57 她在有关同性恋政治议程上的She is very articulate
456 00:28:00 发言非常精彩on speaking on the homosexual political agenda.
457 00:28:03 所以我们请求把发言拍摄下来And that is why we asked, let's videotape it
458 00:28:07 这样就可能让你们作为国家发言人to possibly enable you to have a position
459 00:28:10 在这个问题上有一个立场as a national spokesperson on this, uh, subject.
460 00:28:15 这正是伊万特来到这里的目的So that's why Yvette's here.
461 00:28:17 在政治层面发生的事情What's happening in the political level,
462 00:28:19 是他们试图给同性恋者特殊的权利they're trying to give homosexuals special rights.
463 00:28:22 这可不是什么平等权利We're not talking equal rights, here.
464 00:28:23 而是特殊权利 给予他们特殊的少数群体地位We're talking special rights, giving them special minority status.
465 00:28:27 现在这是一个大问题This is such a huge issue right now
466 00:28:30 没有理由不参与进来that there's really no excuse for not getting involved. And it could…
467 00:28:34 那时一根针掉在地上都能听见 人们都被吸引住了You could hear a pin drop. People were riveted.
468 00:28:38 然后我们到了问答环节And then we did a Q and A afterwards
469 00:28:40 这样人们可以问任何他们想问的问题 也会发现我很了解这个话题so people could ask whatever they wanted and also see that I knew the topic well.
470 00:28:47 谢谢大家来到这里 我没想到会有这么多人Well, thank you all for coming. I wasn't expecting this many people.
471 00:28:53 后来 坐在第一排的一位女士And afterwards, a woman sitting in the front row
472 00:28:56 问我是否愿意搬到华盛顿特区asked me if I'd be willing to relocate to Washington, D.C.
473 00:29:04 于是我接到了一个电话 问我：“你能来家庭研究委员会So I get a phone call that said, "Can you come for an interview
474 00:29:08 面试吗？”at Family Research Council?"
475 00:29:10 家庭研究委员会办公楼
476 00:29:11 家庭研究委员会 是全国最著名的基督教Family Research Council is one of the most prominent Christian-right organizations
477 00:29:17 家庭研究委员会办公楼
478 00:29:17 右翼组织之一in the country.
479 00:29:18 他们有很大的政治权力They have a lot of political power.
480 00:29:21 家庭研究委员会宣传片
481 00:29:23 家庭研究委员会的专家 以其超前的分析 以及对突发新闻的 FRC's experts are well-known by the media for their cutting-edge analysis
482 00:29:27 家庭研究委员会宣传片
483 00:29:27 快速反应而闻名于媒体and quick response to breaking news stories.
484 00:29:27 快速反应而闻名于媒体and quick response to breaking news stories.
485 00:29:29 表达你心中的价值观 捍卫家庭、信仰和自由Voicing your values to defend family, faith, and freedom.
486 00:29:35 那里的领导都是白人直男The leadership there were all straight, white men.
487 00:29:40 他们在寻找一位曾经是同性恋的They were looking for a spokesperson
488 00:29:43 发言人who had been gay.
489 00:29:45 他们告诉我：“你会很棒的 因为你很年轻And I was told, "You're gonna be great because you're young,
490 00:29:49 你有一个西班牙裔的姓氏you have a Hispanic last name,
491 00:29:52 而且你看起来不像同性恋”and you don't look gay."
492 00:29:56 同性恋能改变吗？
493 00:30:04 这是我的名片This is my business card.
494 00:30:06 可能这是最后一张了 当时我是政策分析师伊万特坎图Probably the only one I have left, when I was Yvette Cantu, Policy Analyst.
495 00:30:14 这是我们召开的一个新闻发布会This was a press conference that we did,
496 00:30:18 当时我在家庭研究委员会才待了两周 不到两周and I had only been at FRC for maybe two weeks, less than two weeks.
497 00:30:23 下面大家请看国家新闻俱乐部We're gonna take you now to the National Press Club.
498 00:30:26 在今天早上We have a camera this morning
499 00:30:27 家庭研究委员会召开的新闻发布会上 我们进行了拍摄记录at a news conference to be held by the Family Research Council.
500 00:30:31 今天 我们谈谈世界上一些主要宗教Today, we're here to talk about what some major world religions
501 00:30:34 对同性恋的看法have to say about homosexuality.
502 00:30:37 保守派基督教游说团总需要一些东西The conservative Christian lobby always needs something
503 00:30:41 来激怒他们的选民they can really get their constituents riled up about
504 00:30:46 让他们愿意捐钱and willing to give money
505 00:30:48 愿意投票and willing to vote.
506 00:30:50 什么能真正激怒人们？What can really get people riled up?
507 00:30:53 同性恋Homosexuality.
508 00:30:59 大家普遍感觉 同性恋的权利是必然的The general feeling was that gay rights were inevitable.
509 00:31:03 （给予女同性恋权利）
510 00:31:05 我们当时将这视为 会摧毁正常家庭的事情We looked at it like, this is going to destroy the family as we know it.
511 00:31:11 这会侵蚀基督徒的权利And that it would erode the rights of Christians.
512 00:31:15 前同性恋者伊万特坎图
513 00:31:15 我在家庭研究委员会的工作What I do at Family Research Council
514 00:31:17 前同性恋者伊万特坎图
515 00:31:17 就是反对激进的同性恋议程is opposing an aggressive homosexual agenda,
516 00:31:19 前同性恋者伊万特坎图
517 00:31:20 这个议程企图破坏婚姻which is trying to destroy marriage,
518 00:31:21 前同性恋者伊万特坎图
519 00:31:22 促成同性恋领养行为which is trying to bring about gay adoption.
520 00:31:24 前同性恋者伊万特坎图
521 00:31:24 孩子需要母亲和父亲A child needs a mother and a father.
522 00:31:27 让我插一句Let me just interject one thing.
523 00:31:28 我觉得有必要说一下 我对手组织的事情I just feel I need to say something about my opponent's organization.
524 00:31:32 是不是同性恋家庭不重要 还包括了公民权利、就业、和住房It doesn't matter if it's gay families, civil rights, employment, housing.
525 00:31:37 他们有一个基本的反同性恋议程They have a fundamental anti-gay agenda.
526 00:31:40 就我自己来讲 我摒弃了六年的I, I personally came out of the homosexual lifestyle
527 00:31:44 同性恋生活方式that I was in for six years.
528 00:31:45 我有15个男同性恋朋友 死于艾滋病I have 15 dead gay male friends who have died of AIDS.
529 00:31:50 我想说的是 这是一种危险的My point in all this is to show
530 00:31:52 具有破坏性的生活方式that it is a dangerous, destructive lifestyle,
531 00:31:54 人们可以选择放弃and people can leave it.
532 00:31:56 伊万特坎图《出柜后信主》
533 00:32:10 我不想摆脱掉这些 因为我想记住I don't want to get rid of these because I want to remember.
534 00:32:13 我不想忘记 这是我人生的一部分I don't want to forget. Like, this is part of my life.
535 00:32:16 这是我做过的事情This is part of what I did,
536 00:32:18 （不是同性恋）
537 00:32:19 但回头看的确很艰难but it's hard to look back.
538 00:32:43 我16岁就开始去生命之光了I started at Living Hope when I was 16,
539 00:32:45 直到25岁 才离开那里and I didn't move away from Living Hope till I was 25.
540 00:32:51 我每周都和里奇一起做心理咨询I was doing a weekly counseling session with Ricky,
541 00:32:55 每周都要召开生命之光见面会 我们称之为“团体会”a weekly Living Hope meeting, we just called it "group,"
542 00:32:57 然后我通常会在周日下午 在里奇家吃午饭and then I would usually have lunch at Ricky's house on Sunday afternoon.
543 00:33:01 所以有很多天 我都在忙着生命之光的事So, like, more days than not, I was at Living Hope stuff.
544 00:33:06 我的整个人生都围绕着 不做同性恋展开My whole entire life was structured around not being gay.
545 00:33:17 第一 浸信会 教堂
546 00:33:22 生命之光有很多年轻人There was a high population of youth who were at Living Hope.
547 00:33:25 第一 浸信会 教堂
548 00:33:26 每次至少有50人参加活动It was at least 50 people that were cycling through.
549 00:33:29 第一 浸信会 教堂
550 00:33:32 我们之间不允许在外面私下接触We weren't allowed to have outside contact with each other.
551 00:33:35 所以我们不能够成为脸书好友So we weren't allowed to be friends on Facebook
552 00:33:38 也不允许知道彼此的姓氏or to know each other's last names.
553 00:33:40 我们不能分享任何身份信息的原因The reason that we couldn't share any identifying information
554 00:33:44 是因为他们担心was because they were worried
555 00:33:45 我们会见面 并发生性关系we would all meet up and have sex with each other.
556 00:33:48 我们只有在有人监督的时候 才可以交流We were only allowed to talk when we were, like, supervised.
557 00:33:56 里奇总说Ricky would say
558 00:33:57 大部分时间都是你的精神之旅a big part of it's gonna be, like, your spiritual walk,
559 00:34:01 花时间读圣经 做祷告spending time reading the Bible, and praying,
560 00:34:04 放弃自慰 自慰是个大问题and, um, giving up masturbation. Masturbation was a big deal.
561 00:34:07 放弃自慰 绝对要放弃看色情片Giving up masturbation, definitely giving up porn.
562 00:34:12 我妈和里奇决定It was decided between my mom and Ricky
563 00:34:16 说我要放弃垒球 这样我就不会变成同性恋that I was gonna quit softball so I wouldn't become gay,
564 00:34:18 为了不成为女同性恋 我不得不上基督教大学and I had to go to a Christian college so I wouldn't become a lesbian.
565 00:34:22 如果你问If you were to say, like,
566 00:34:23 “朱莉要怎么做才能变成异性恋”"What does Julie need to do to become straight?"
567 00:34:26 那可有的聊了It was a lot.
568 00:34:38 2006年
569 00:34:40 出埃及年会2006年
570 00:34:46 2006年
571 00:34:46 出埃及
572 00:34:51 出埃及国际的一个著名活动One of the things that Exodus International was known for
573 00:34:53 就是我们的年会was our annual conference,
574 00:34:56 人们可以去那里了解where people could go and learn more
575 00:35:00 更多关于克服同性吸引的过程…about the whole journey of overcoming same-sex attractions
576 00:35:01 兰迪托马斯出埃及前副主席
577 00:35:04 兰迪托马斯出埃及前副主席
578 00:35:06 …并和有类似想法的其他人建立友谊and to have fellowship with other people who believed similarly.
579 00:35:07 …并和有类似想法的其他人建立友谊and to have fellowship with other people who believed similarly.
580 00:35:11 我们会举办很多研讨会We would have lots of workshops,
581 00:35:14 主题从家庭格局and they would range in topics from family dynamics,
582 00:35:17 到帮助男人接受他们的男子气概to helping men embrace their masculinity,
583 00:35:21 或帮助女人欣赏自己的女性气质or women to rejoice in their femininity.
584 00:35:24 可能有影响的因素
585 00:35:26 …谈论的是首先要寻求上帝的国度 …focus on 33, which talks about, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God."
586 00:35:28 他们犯的一个错误 就是他们开始考虑自己的余生A mistake they make is they start thinking about the rest of their lives.
587 00:35:32 她们成为女同性恋很可能是因为They're drawn into lesbianism probably because
588 00:35:35 想保护自己不遭受男人的进一步伤害she wants to protect against further hurt from a man.
589 00:35:38 她需要疗伤才能和一个男人 开始一段感情 She needs a lot of healing before she could ever be open to a relationship with a man.
590 00:35:43 我17岁的时候 参加了第一场出埃及会议 I went to my first Exodus conference when I was 17 years old.
591 00:35:48 里奇每年都从生命之光组织 带去一大群人Ricky took a big group of people from Living Hope every single year.
592 00:35:53 那是我第一次遇到一群非常酷的人It was the first time I met a bunch of really, really cool people
593 00:35:57 他们完全投身于那个过程who were devoted to this process.
594 00:36:03 我应该接受自己的女性气质I was supposed to, like, embrace my femininity.
595 00:36:06 他们教我们化妆They taught us to wear makeup,
596 00:36:09 然后男生们会去打橄榄球and the guys would go play football.
597 00:36:12 他们会说：They would say,
598 00:36:14 “我们并不是认为橄榄球会让你变直"It's not that we think football's gonna make you straight,
599 00:36:16 但会提供另一种 与其他男生建立联系的方式”but it will give you another way of connecting with the guys."
600 00:36:19 “化妆会提供另一种与其他女孩 以及与女性气质"And makeup's gonna give you another way of connecting with the girls
601 00:36:22 建立联系的方式”and your femininity."
602 00:36:23 这么做就是为了在改变行为的同时 改变你取向That is a part of shifting things in here that's gonna shift your attractions.
603 00:36:29 希望你会开始看到一些 影响你的性取向Hopefully you are beginning to see some of the root causes
604 00:36:33 和性别认同的根本原因that can affect your sexuality and your identity, and…
605 00:36:36 你仍然要学习圣经 参加小组交流 不断学习You're still doing Bible studies and small groups and learning things.
606 00:36:40 但你也熬到凌晨两点But you also stay up till two in the morning,
607 00:36:42 说说笑笑 讲笑话talking, and laughing, and telling jokes.
608 00:36:44 我尤其记得深夜的时候 领导人都上床休息了I remember especially the late-night times when all the leaders were in bed,
609 00:36:47 然后我们就释放同性恋的一面and we just got to be our little queer selves, and it was,
610 00:36:50 在很多方面 那都像是我们人生中的安全港湾in many ways, like, one of the few safe places
611 00:36:55 我知道这听起来很疯狂in our lives, and I know that sounds really crazy
612 00:36:58 因为那可是出埃及国际会议'cause it was an Exodus International conference,
613 00:37:00 但在那个时候 归属感对我们来说就是那样的but at that time, that was what belonging looked like for us.
614 00:37:06 很多时候 同性吸引的人很挣扎 他们会感到孤独 A lot of times, people that struggle with this always feel so alone, struggle with same-sex attraction, always feel ...
615 00:37:11 看到其他人有同样的经历 是很棒的事情It's great to see others who've been in the same shoes.
616 00:37:13 你希望这周能有什么收获？And what do you hope to come out of this week?
617 00:37:17 成为一位更强大的人 A stronger person, um,
618 00:37:19 在一些我还没有学到的领域 变得更加博学more knowledgeable in areas I still don't really get,
619 00:37:22 当然 或许我永远也学不会 但只要拥有更多的勇气and I might never get, but, um, just to have more courage
620 00:37:26 为自己站出来就行to stand up and stuff.
621 00:37:31 开了吗？Is this on?
622 00:37:33 兰迪托马斯
623 00:37:34 我想邀请祷告团上来 来吧 各位 I wanna invite the prayer team up. Come on up, guys.
624 00:37:37 兰迪托马斯
625 00:37:38 很多人可能会感到压力A lot of you may be feeling pressure.
626 00:37:41 可能会觉得自己身处黑暗之中You may be feeling like you're in darkness.
627 00:37:44 但你能感觉到有一只手向你伸了过来But you sense that there is a hand reaching towards you.
628 00:37:48 你想让那只手抓住你 让主的手把你拉出来And you want that hand to grasp you, the hand of the Lord, to pull you out,
629 00:37:52 来展现主所创造的灿烂人生to reveal the splendor of what He's created you to be.
630 00:37:57 兄弟姐妹 奉耶稣的名 向前迈出一步Brothers and sisters, in Jesus' name, step forward,
631 00:38:01 在基督的身体中占据你应有的位置take your rightful place in the body of Christ.
632 00:38:05 上前接受祷告 上前来宣告Come forward and receive prayer. Come forward and make your declaration,
633 00:38:09 我必不再归于黑暗that I will not go back to the darkness.
634 00:38:15 那一周有好几位演讲者There were several speakers throughout that week,
635 00:38:18 都是知名的前同性恋者big ex-gay names.
636 00:38:21 他们讲述了皈依耶稣的故事And they told these stories of this big conversion to Jesus,
637 00:38:25 意识到上帝爱他们 他们不一定要成为同性恋and realizing God loved them, realizing they "didn't have to be gay,"
638 00:38:28 这就是他们的理解was how they would frame it.
639 00:38:30 那些故事很有说服力There were really compelling stories.
640 00:38:34 我记得当时我觉得And so I remember feeling like,
641 00:38:37 我想和他们一样 I wanna be like them. Like, I wanna be
642 00:38:38 我想变酷、快乐、被上帝爱 cool, and happy, and loved by God.
643 00:38:50 前同性恋广告活动2000年
644 00:38:50 你可能在《新闻周刊》的封面上 见过约翰与安妮保克夫妇You may have seen John and Anne Paulk on the cover of Newsweek.
645 00:38:53 前同性恋广告活动2000年
646 00:38:54 他们都曾经是同性恋 现在已经结为夫妇Both former homosexuals, now married to each other.
647 00:38:56 他们都曾经是同性恋 现在已经结为夫妇Both former homosexuals, now married to each other.
648 00:38:57 还有其他像这样的人吗？But are there others like them?
649 00:38:59 我在同性恋群体中活跃了13年I was active in the gay community for 13 years.
650 00:39:01 而我是六年I was in it for six years,
651 00:39:03 然后挣扎了五年才找到真正的自由then struggled for five years before finding true freedom.
652 00:39:05 对我来说是13年It was 13 years for me.
653 00:39:07 我是四年 但我们都脱离了那种生活Four for me, but we both walked away from it.
654 00:39:10 整个基督教会的基础就是结婚The whole Christian church is based on being married,
655 00:39:14 做一个有家、有孩子的being a family man,
656 00:39:16 男人and having children.
657 00:39:18 我去出埃及的时候有个目标I had a goal when I went to Exodus,
658 00:39:22 就是结婚 做一名父亲was to get married and be a father.
659 00:39:25 这不仅仅是我希望 有一天会发生的事情That wasn't just something I hoped someday would happen.
660 00:39:28 而是我拼命追求的目标It was a goal I pursued with a vengeance.
661 00:39:31 你们两个是怎么在一起的？Now, how do you two get together?
662 00:39:34 -我们起初并不是朋友 因为… -不是We were not friends at first,
663 00:39:36 …我们当时还处在 对自己性别认同的困惑中because we were still in the middle of our own gender identity confusion.
664 00:39:40 但慢慢地 我们成了朋友But slowly we became friends,
665 00:39:42 在友谊的基础上 我们相爱了and based out of a friendship, we fell in love.
666 00:39:44 我接受了耶稣作为我的救世主…I accepted Jesus as my savior
667 00:39:45 安妮保克我接受了耶稣作为我的救世主…
668 00:39:47 安妮保克
669 00:39:48 …然后阅读了《圣经》的内容 and, uh, and then read what the Bible had to say.
670 00:39:49 …然后阅读了《圣经》的内容 and, uh, and then read what the Bible had to say.
671 00:39:50 那时候 我的生活开始发生了变化At that point, things started to change in my life.
672 00:39:53 我们被教导：你会和女人成为朋友We were taught, "You'll become friends with a woman,
673 00:39:57 和她在一起你会有安全感you will feel safe with her,
674 00:39:59 希望在此基础上还能产生性吸引and hopefully a sexual attraction will grow on top of that."
675 00:40:04 他们会说：“你不需要 对所有女人有好感They would say, "You don't have to be attracted to all women."
676 00:40:07 有一个人吸引你就够了"You only have to be attracted to one."
677 00:40:09 一个就行 因为你会爱上那个人"Just one, 'cause that's the one you'll fall in love with,
678 00:40:12 你会和她结婚and that's the one you're going to marry."
679 00:40:14 就一个”"Just one."
680 00:40:18 后面怎样弄下来？How do you undo the end?
681 00:40:20 那你得用另一把刀Okay, so, you gotta do it with a different knife.
682 00:40:24 你这把刀太大了You're using a big knife.
683 00:40:26 用一把小的 刻一个小小的V形Use a small one and just make a little V.
684 00:40:31 这样就弄下来了 好吗？That takes it out. Okay?
685 00:40:33 抱歉宝贝Sorry, baby.
686 00:40:35 -还挺酷的 -是的- That's kind of cool. -I know.
687 00:40:37 我会教你一些高级技巧See, I'm gonna teach you about how to do some of this fancy stuff.
688 00:40:46 所以我们在一起了So here we were.
689 00:40:48 我妻子穿着漂亮的塔尔伯茨套装My wife wore these beautiful Talbots suits,
690 00:40:51 化了妆and wore makeup,
691 00:40:53 看起来非常优雅and looked very elegant.
692 00:40:55 后来我们有了孩子 我们会一起上电视And we had children, and the children were on TV with us.
693 00:41:00 在某些方面 我不再认为自己是一个同性恋了In some ways, I didn't see myself as a gay person anymore.
694 00:41:05 因为对我来说 成为同性恋意味着我要做爱Because to me, to be gay would mean I was having sex,
695 00:41:08 我要去同性恋酒吧 和同性恋者混在一起I was going to gay bars, I associated with gay people.
696 00:41:13 我是根据行为判断同性恋的I based being gay on behavior.
697 00:41:16 让你成为同性恋的是你的行为 而不是你的感情It was the behavior that made you gay, not your feelings.
698 00:41:20 但我的感觉还是非常同性恋But my feelings were very much gay.
699 00:41:24 我的婚姻已经有十年了 很成功I've had a successful marriage for ten years,
700 00:41:27 我和我的妻子感情恩爱 性生活和谐have a very fulfilling emotional and sexual relationship with my wife,
701 00:41:31 我们有两个儿子 所以有些事情的确改变了have fathered two sons, so something has changed.
702 00:41:36 如果我曾说If I had said,
703 00:41:37 “我当然会被同性诱惑”"Well, of course I'm tempted by homosexuality,"
704 00:41:41 那的确是大实话that would have been honest.
705 00:41:44 但是 我觉得我不能说实话However, I didn't feel like I could be honest,
706 00:41:47 因为我坐在这里不只是代表我自己because I'm not just sitting here representing myself.
707 00:41:50 我代表的是整个运动I am representing a whole movement.
708 00:41:53 如果我说：“我还是会被诱惑”And if I say, "Well, I'm still tempted by it,"
709 00:41:56 那别人会怎么想？what does that say to someone?
710 00:41:58 你觉得你是在撒谎吗？Do you feel like you were lying?
711 00:42:00 我确实撒了谎I did lie.
712 00:42:02 你看 现在我可以轻松地说出来…I-- See, I can say that now with no-- w-with-- with…
713 00:42:06 但还是有些羞愧和尴尬Well, with shame and embarrassment.
714 00:42:08 我母亲来自一个非常专横的家庭…My mother came from a very domineering home…
715 00:42:10 我发现我的不诚实会伤害别人I realized that my dishonesty hurt people.
716 00:42:15 因为我的不诚实会让观众Because I was dishonest, it caused people in the audience,
717 00:42:19 让那些在和同性恋感觉作斗争的人people that were struggling with homosexuality or had gay feelings,
718 00:42:23 觉得“我一定是哪里出了问题to feel like, "There must be something wrong with me
719 00:42:26 因为我和他不一样”'cause I'm not like him."
720 00:42:29 “他感受不到诱惑了And, "He doesn't-- He's not tempted anymore."
721 00:42:32 所以如果我被诱惑了 我这人一定无可救药了”"So if I'm tempted, I must be broken and damaged."
722 00:42:47 乔治亚州 罗伊斯顿
723 00:42:52 （自由旅行）
724 00:42:56 像我这样的故事还有很多My story's just one of many.
725 00:42:58 我希望有类似故事的人So I wanted people that have similar stories to mine
726 00:43:01 能分享出来to be able to share.
727 00:43:02 这就是自由游行带给他们的 一个分享的平台That's what the Freedom March gave them, a platform to share.
728 00:43:04 因为主流媒体 不会分享我们这些人的故事Because mainstream media doesn't share our types of stories.
729 00:43:10 这就是我发起自由游行的原因 给他们发声的机会That's why I started Freedom March, is to give them a voice.
730 00:43:13 （自由旅行）
731 00:43:15 这只持续了六个月This has only been going for six months.
732 00:43:18 上面写着3924名追随者That says 3,924 follows,
733 00:43:22 比我想象的要多一千名about 1,000 more than I even thought.
734 00:43:24 真的太多了There's just so many.
735 00:43:26 应援者系列真的太多了
736 00:43:26 应援者系列
737 00:43:30 喂？Hello?
738 00:43:31 嗨 杰弗里！Oh, hi, Jeffrey!
739 00:43:33 我偶然看到了你的脸书I stumbled across your Facebook.
740 00:43:36 我开始关注你的主页了 因为听到你的故事I started following your pages 'cause it was just so hopeful to me
741 00:43:39 和发生在你身上的事让我充满了希望to hear about your story and what happened to you.
742 00:43:42 我希望我儿子能像你一样 你懂吗？And what I hope happens to my son, you know?
743 00:43:45 可以跟我讲讲发生了什么事吗？Wanna go ahead and tell me a little bit of what's been going on?
744 00:43:48 我们有个20岁的儿子So we have a 20-year-old son.
745 00:43:51 他说：“我是个变性女孩”He said, "I'm a transgender girl."
746 00:43:53 然后我看着他说：And I looked at him, and I said,
747 00:43:57 “你是男孩”"You're a boy."
748 00:43:59 他已经离开家六个月了And he's been gone for about six months now.
749 00:44:02 我们真的很难过And it's been really hard.
750 00:44:05 我们很想他I miss him so much.
751 00:44:08 但他认为我不接受他 因为我不称他为我的女儿But he thinks that I'm rejecting him because I won't call him my daughter.
752 00:44:14 当我的良心告诉我How can I agree with that
753 00:44:15 那就是个谎言后 我怎么能同意呢？when, in my conscience, I believe that's a lie?
754 00:44:19 我想他知道你爱他的Well, I think he knows you love him.
755 00:44:22 -他只是想要你… -是 他知道-He just wants you… -Yeah, he does.
756 00:44:24 他希望你按照他想要的方式去做He wants you to do it the way he wants you to do it.
757 00:44:26 -没错 ！ -有时候…-Exactly! Exactly. -And… And sometimes…
758 00:44:29 如果有人…If someone is--
759 00:44:30 当父母的是不会让自己的孩子If a child is going out on the road,
760 00:44:33 走上绝路而视而不见的a parent's not going to let a semi-truck come and hit them.
761 00:44:36 如果父母必须把他们拉出来 如果父母必须要去抓他们If they have to yank them up, if they have to go grab them,
762 00:44:40 他们一定会让他离开那条绝路的 这就很像你现在正在做的事they're gonna get them out of the road. And that's how-- what you're trying to do.
763 00:44:44 这是对我的赞同 我很感谢That's right. That's confirmation to me. I appreciate that.
764 00:44:47 有一股强大的精神力量 他在强迫你称他为女人It's a strong spirit that wants to force you to call him a woman,
765 00:44:51 但他不是 这股力量想让你妥协and he's not. It wants you to bow down,
766 00:44:53 让你赞同 逼你同意并表示赞同and you're gonna say yes, and you have to agree with what it says.
767 00:44:56 -不要这样 -就是这个感觉 没错-Don't do that. -That's what it feels like. Exactly.
768 00:44:59 我相信 I do believe, um,
769 00:45:01 在这件事上 你必须坚持信念that you have to stand in faith with this.
770 00:45:04 好的Okay.
771 00:45:08 写作样例：超爱
772 00:45:17 去年我一直在写一本书I've been working on a book for the last year,
773 00:45:20 想要讲明白我的经历trying to make sense of my experience
774 00:45:24 并把发生的一切都写下来and writing everything that happened.
775 00:45:37 我在生命之光的时候 每周我们都会在里奇的办公室见面When I was in Living Hope, every week we would meet in Ricky's office
776 00:45:42 在那种私人咨询的环境里 谈论深刻的、强烈的to talk about all this deep, intense sexual, emotional baggage
777 00:45:48 性和情感经历in this one private counseling setting.
778 00:45:55 生命之光办公室
779 00:45:57 从很多方面来说 有点像一般的心理辅导预约It was kind of like a normal therapy appointment in many ways
780 00:45:59 生命之光办公室
781 00:45:59 你坐下来 谈论你一周内发生的事情where you sit down and talk about your week
782 00:46:02 生命之光办公室
783 00:46:02 然后你开始深入地and what's going on, and then you start getting deeper
784 00:46:04 谈论真正困扰你的事情into the stuff that's really bothering you.
785 00:46:08 但这个过程有更多忏悔元素But there was a little more of a confessional element.
786 00:46:10 第一浸信会教堂
787 00:46:13 我觉得我必须告诉里奇一切事情I felt like I had to tell Ricky everything,
788 00:46:15 第一浸信会教堂
789 00:46:15 所有的性吸引力、感觉 或者我可能对谁有的好感every sexual attraction, or feeling, or crush that I might have.
790 00:46:19 第一浸信会教堂
791 00:46:20 如果我的老板是女同性恋I felt the need to report if I had a lesbian boss,
792 00:46:24 第一浸信会教堂
793 00:46:24 或者在我工作的餐厅有女同性恋顾客 我都觉得有必要报告or lesbian customers that came in at the restaurant where I worked.
794 00:46:28 第一浸信会教堂
795 00:46:29 假设我和别人发生了性关系Let's say I had, like, acted out sexually with somebody else.
796 00:46:33 我绝对需要坦白出来I would've definitely needed to have confessed that
797 00:46:36 并说明所有的情况and told all the circumstances around it,
798 00:46:38 我们第一天聊天的时间 第一发短信的时间when we first started talking, when we texted,
799 00:46:41 我们决定要发展关系的时间 和我们见面的时间when we decided we were gonna do something, when we met up,
800 00:46:44 以及我为什么没有断开联系why I hadn't cut off contact,
801 00:46:46 我的日常生活出了什么问题 导致我做了这样的事情what was going on in my life outside of it that made me turn to that.
802 00:46:51 当我觉得我没有达到Everything where I felt like I was falling short
803 00:46:53 应该达到的目标时of what I was supposed to be,
804 00:46:54 我觉得我必须坦白 然后克服它I felt like I had to confess that and work through it.
805 00:47:05 我会回头看之前的日记I'll go back and read old journal entries,
806 00:47:07 全部都是 “上帝原谅我有如此邪恶的肉体”and it's all, "God forgive me for having such evil flesh."
807 00:47:11 我唯一的希望就是上帝能把我 从自我中拯救出来"And the only hope for me is that God would save me from myself."
808 00:47:17 我当时十几岁 是大人眼中的好孩子I was a teenager, and I was a really good teenager.
809 00:47:21 我就觉得自己太糟糕了I just thought I was so bad.
810 00:47:32 2009年
811 00:47:34 出埃及年会2009年
812 00:47:40 2009年
813 00:47:42 下面我荣幸地介绍下一位演讲嘉宾It's my great privilege and honor to introduce our next speaker.
814 00:47:48 他是一名心理医生He's a psychologist.
815 00:47:50 他在心理健康领域里非常特立独行He is really like a maverick in the mental health community.
816 00:47:54 他是个叛逆者He's a renegade.
817 00:47:55 因为心理健康领域认为 为了避免同性吸引Because the mental health community believes that to receive help
818 00:47:59 而接受帮助是不可以的for unwanted same-sex attractions, that should not be allowed.
819 00:48:03 但他不在乎那些And he doesn't care what they say.
820 00:48:05 三十年来 他一直在治疗He's been treating men for unwanted same-sex attractions
821 00:48:07 避免同性吸引的群体for 30 years.
822 00:48:12 我记得几年前 我刚开始这项工作的时候…I remember years ago when I first started this work,
823 00:48:13 约瑟夫尼科洛西医生临床心理学家
824 00:48:15 约瑟夫尼科洛西医生临床心理学家
825 00:48:17 …有同性恋问题的人进来后um, the guy with the homosexual problem would come in,
826 00:48:18 …有同性恋问题的人进来后um, the guy with the homosexual problem would come in,
827 00:48:19 他们开始理解同性恋形象and they begin to see that the homosexual image
828 00:48:22 是对内心空虚的一种防御is really a defense against that inner core emptiness.
829 00:48:27 人们可能错误地认为 整个前同性恋运动People may wrongly assume that the whole ex-gay movement
830 00:48:29 是一次严格的宗教运动is strictly a religious thing,
831 00:48:31 但随着出埃及的成立but alongside the formation of Exodus
832 00:48:34 那帮心理学家和心理治疗师were this group of psychologists and therapists
833 00:48:37 靠着治疗同性恋群体who had made their livings
834 00:48:39 养活了自己 开创了事业and their careers trying to cure gay people.
835 00:48:43 这是可怕的伪心理学It was awful pseudo-psychology.
836 00:48:46 他们所说的内容 没有任何正确的科学依据What they were saying was not based on any good science,
837 00:48:50 但出埃及是在寻求某种名望but Exodus was looking for some sort of respectability.
838 00:48:54 相信这一切的不只是我们"It's not just us who believe this."
839 00:48:56 真正的心理治疗师和精神科医生"It's actual therapists and psychiatrists who also know
840 00:48:59 也同意我们说的是真的that what we're saying is true."
841 00:49:01 约瑟夫尼科洛西医生只是 500名治疗师团队的其中一位Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is part of an organization of 500 therapists
842 00:49:05 该团队致力于帮助想变直的同性恋者working with gays who want to lead straight lives.
843 00:49:09 我们对信誉的需求 与拥有客户的心理治疗师之间 There was a symbiotic relationship between our need for credibility,
844 00:49:14 存在一种共生关系and then of course, the therapists who get clients.
845 00:49:20 我们的关系网中Our networks were infused
846 00:49:21 充斥着他们的书籍with their books,
847 00:49:24 他们的教导和治疗方法with their teachings, with their therapeutic approach.
848 00:49:30 这听起来很糟 This sounds awful, but it was a mutually…
849 00:49:32 但这是互惠互利的商业安排 It was a mutually beneficial business arrangement.
850 00:49:37 修复治疗课程视频
851 00:49:43 你在退缩 跟我谈谈吧 我想知道你的感受 You're holding back. Talk to me. I want to know what you're feeling.
852 00:49:47 你在退缩 跟我谈谈吧 我想知道你的感受 You're holding back. Talk to me. I want to know what you're feeling.
853 00:49:52 我只是在想这个人太破碎了I'm just thinking about this person that's so broken.
854 00:49:59 你自己吗？- -Yourself?
855 00:50:00 -我自己 -太破碎了？-Myself. -So broken?
856 00:50:02 你感觉破碎吗？You feel broken?
857 00:50:06 坐在我面前How does it feel,
858 00:50:08 如此破碎 这个感觉如何？feeling broken sitting right here in front of me?
859 00:50:11 我看着你 你破碎的时候 我看着你 你感觉如何？I'm looking at you. How does it feel to be broken as I look at you?
860 00:50:19 伤心吗？Hurtful?
861 00:50:21 难过？Very sad?
862 00:50:22 感觉破碎心里很难过 Very sad to feel broken. -Very sad to feel broken. -
863 00:50:29 你能感受到 我对你这个破碎之人的接纳吗？Can you feel my acceptance of you as broken?
864 00:50:34 这种感觉怎么样？ - -What's that feel like?
865 00:50:35 感觉很好Feels good.
866 00:50:37 这种感觉不错That feels good.
867 00:50:39 我真希望我此刻不在这里I just wish I wasn't here at this time.
868 00:50:42 我是说 我希望现在没有那么 沉溺于自己的思想I mean, I wish I wasn't here in my mind right now.
869 00:50:44 当然-Of course. -Huh.
870 00:50:49 我感觉…我感觉自己很糟糕I feel like-- I just feel like a bad person.
871 00:50:53 我觉得…I feel like…
872 00:50:55 好 - -Mm-hmm.
873 00:51:02 这个男人 他接受治疗的原因是This man, what brought him into therapy was,
874 00:51:06 他结婚时经常和男人乱搞he was acting out with men while he was married.
875 00:51:10 自那之后Since that time,
876 00:51:11 他们做得很棒 他一年都没有再乱搞过they have done very, very well, and he has not acted out in a year
877 00:51:16 他说他没有和同性and-- and tells me he has no desire to act out,
878 00:51:20 发生关系的欲望homosexually.
879 00:51:24 上帝 在你荣耀的光芒中Lord God, in the light of your glory,
880 00:51:27 我们看到了我们所犯的错误 以及我们所否认的真相 we see the wrong we have done and the truth we have denied.
881 00:51:31 医治我们的罪孽 用你的仁慈洗涤我们Heal us of our sin, wash us in your mercy,
882 00:51:36 用你的恩典供养我们and feed us with your grace
883 00:51:38 这样我们可以遵行你们的道 活出福音的好消息so that we may follow Your way and live out the Good News of the Gospel.
884 00:51:43 阿门Amen.
885 00:51:44 你们已经领受了 神的赦免、恩典和平安You have received that forgiveness, and that grace, and that peace from God.
886 00:51:47 下面花点时间分享彼此的平静吧We're gonna take a moment to share that peace with one another.
887 00:51:55 早上好！Good morning!
888 00:51:59 从我17岁开始From the time that I was 17,
889 00:52:02 里奇就说：“你将成为下一个大人物”Ricky was saying, "You're gonna be the next big thing."
890 00:52:06 他对我寄予厚望 希望我能担起责任He had a big hope for me that I was gonna carry the mantle.
891 00:52:10 所以当我很小的时候 他们就把我当做模范儿童那样培养And so they put me up as a poster child when I was really young.
892 00:52:16 人们常过来跟我说People would come to me with these visions of, like,
893 00:52:18 “我看到一个容纳万人的体育场"I see a stadium of 10,000 people,
894 00:52:21 你在宣讲福音 传递希望和治愈”and you're just preaching the Gospel and a message of hope and healing."
895 00:52:27 我经常做那些事情It was definitely a big part of my involvement
896 00:52:30 在生命之光和出埃及at Living Hope and Exodus,
897 00:52:31 大家都觉得我被认定为 成为下一个重要领袖was this idea that I was called to be the next big leader.
898 00:52:36 请大家热烈欢迎 我的朋友朱莉罗杰斯Please give a very warm welcome to my friend, Julie Rodgers.
899 00:52:37 2011年请大家热烈欢迎 我的朋友朱莉罗杰斯
900 00:52:39 出埃及年会2011年
901 00:52:40 2011年出埃及年会
902 00:52:52 我有一天回家了I came home one day,
903 00:52:53 我告诉我妈我是女同性恋 我不想再瞒着她了and I told my mom that I was a lesbian, and that I was sick of hiding it from her.
904 00:52:58 她吓坏了Well, she freaked out,
905 00:53:00 她不知怎么联系了 来自生命之光教会的and, uh, she somehow got in touch with Ricky Chelette
906 00:53:04 里奇切莱特 向生命之光致敬！from Living Hope Ministries. Shout out, Living Hope!
907 00:53:08 这些都是我的兄弟姐妹们 他其实…That's my people. He was actually, um…
908 00:53:10 里奇告诉出埃及的领导人 我应该演讲 Ricky had told Exodus leadership that I should be speaking,
909 00:53:14 我可能在八到10个不同的会议上 代表他们演讲过and I probably spoke for them at eight to ten different conferences.
910 00:53:18 所以我决定 高中的最后一年So I'd decided, by senior year high school,
911 00:53:20 我要把我的生命献给主 全心全意追随他I was gonna give my life to the Lord and follow him with all of my heart.
912 00:53:25 我在大学的时候 有过一次很糟糕的经历 I had a really bad experience
913 00:53:30 和性侵犯有关 when I was in college, involving sexual assault.
914 00:53:32 这件事我只告诉过生命之光的那群人And the people in Living Hope were the only people I told about it.
915 00:53:38 我觉得他们不知道该怎么办I don't think they knew quite what to do with it.
916 00:53:40 可是 这件事发生不久之后But what happened was, very quickly after,
917 00:53:43 在第二年within the next year, um,
918 00:53:46 里奇想让我把这件事写进我的见证Ricky wanted me to incorporate that into my testimony.
919 00:53:49 我决定了不分享这件事I decided I didn't want to share that,
920 00:53:51 我和里奇一起去了某个地方 分享了我之前准备的见证and I went with Ricky somewhere and, like, gave my testimony beforehand.
921 00:53:55 我决定不分享那些细节 感觉不太对… I decided I didn't wanna share that detail because I was like, it just didn't feel right.
922 00:53:58 我觉得不舒服 那是我私人的事情I don't feel comfortable about it. This is something that's mine
923 00:54:01 我需要更努力走出来that I need to work through more.
924 00:54:02 那天晚上回家的路上And on the way home that night, um,
925 00:54:05 他总会给我指点迷津he would always kind of, like, give me pointers,
926 00:54:07 他说：“你知道吗 你分享了你的见证and he was like, "You know, you did a really good job
927 00:54:09 你做得很棒 sharing your testimony, um,
928 00:54:12 但我很遗憾你漏掉了强奸的部分”but I just really regret that you left out the part about the rape."
929 00:54:16 我当时说And I was like,
930 00:54:19 “我不想谈那件事”"I didn't feel like talking about it."
931 00:54:20 他说：“我只是觉得 这样会让你的见证少了And he was like, "I just think it kind of removes some of the power
932 00:54:24 一点说服力”from your testimony."
933 00:54:26 结果他在性方面And he actually, um, ended up taking advantage of me,
934 00:54:30 占了我的便宜 那天晚上sexually, that night
935 00:54:31 我们回到他的公寓时 他基本可以算是强奸了我 when we went back to his apartment, he-- he… …essentially ra-- raping me.
936 00:54:37 我最后讲了那个故事I ended up telling the story,
937 00:54:39 但我记得我很生气but I remember feeling, like, so angry
938 00:54:41 我生命中所有这些私人的经历that all of these really intimate experiences of my life
939 00:54:46 都被精心安排 并整合在一起 好推进演讲were being orchestrated and put together in a way that pushed in a narrative,
940 00:54:53 男人都很糟糕 我讨厌男人"Men are bad, and I hate men,
941 00:54:55 而且因为虐待 我转向了女人and because of abuse, I have turned to women."
942 00:54:59 怎么会这样？You let that happen?
943 00:55:03 我试着相信男人是可以信任的 可结果呢？I tried to believe men could be trusted, and that happens?
944 00:55:06 我受够了！I'm done with this!
945 00:55:10 哪双眼可瞻望♪ What eyes could look on ♪
946 00:55:14 你荣光的慈容♪ Your glorious face ♪
947 00:55:18 如艳阳般照耀♪ Shining like the sun ♪
948 00:55:26 回想起来 我真的希望我没有被那样利用Looking back, I definitely wish I hadn't been exploited in that way,
949 00:55:31 没有被当做工具人 那时年纪还小and put up as a prop at way too young of an age,
950 00:55:33 感情上很脆弱when I was really emotionally vulnerable.
951 00:55:45 自由游行全国集会华盛顿特区
952 00:55:51 天啊 看看谁来了！Oh my gosh, look who it is!
953 00:55:54 三个我最喜爱的人Three of my favorite people.
954 00:55:56 你好吗 小子？How are you, boy?
955 00:55:58 天啊 你们怎么这么久？Oh my gosh, what took y'all so long?
956 00:56:04 嗨 宝贝！- -Hi, precious!
957 00:56:09 这里就是教堂This is the church.
958 00:56:11 这里就是教会 是教堂This is ecclesia. This is the church.
959 00:56:21 昨天的那篇文章浏览量简直爆棚The article from yesterday is, like, going through the roof.
960 00:56:24 全国各地的人们都在点击阅读People from all over the country are clicking on it.
961 00:56:27 -太棒了！ -是的-That's amazing! -Yes.
962 00:56:28 -信息传达出去了 -阿门-Word's getting out there. -Amen.
963 00:56:30 简直火爆了It's blowing up.
964 00:56:32 是的 我太开心了！-Mmm! -Yes, I love it!
965 00:56:34 嘿 各位 我们要开始做礼拜了Hey, y'all. We're about to start worship.
966 00:56:37 他们要开始做礼拜了They're about to start worship.
967 00:56:40 好了 大家请安静！Okay, everybody be quiet please!
968 00:56:43 安静Quiet.
969 00:56:44 我2017年在这里的时候 我突然想到：While I was here in 2017 was when the thought came to me,
970 00:56:47 我们需要为那些放弃 性少数群体生活方式的人举行游行"We need to have a march for people who left LGBTQ lifestyles."
971 00:56:52 自由游行就是关于你们所有人的故事The Freedom March is just all about y'all's stories.
972 00:56:55 不是我的故事 这是为了庆祝你们的故事It's not just about my story. It's about celebrating all your stories.
973 00:56:59 而且我相信主让我转达给你们： “无论上帝对你说什么都要顺从”Also, the Lord put on my heart to say, "Be obedient in whatever He tells you."
974 00:57:03 当你顺从上帝一次 上帝就会越来越信任你When you step out in obedience once, He'll trust you more and more and more,
975 00:57:08 你就会不断成长 and you will just continue to grow. And a lot of times, it's the little things
976 00:57:10 很多时候 我们在家做的那些琐事 他都在观察着 He watches us on at home, the little things.
977 00:57:14 你是否顺从他告诉你的一些小事情Are you being obedient with something He tells you little
978 00:57:17 不只是教会那些大事？每天都要顺从and not just a big ministry thing? It's just every day being obedient.
979 00:57:20 因为上帝说过爱他的人都会顺从他'Cause He said those that love Him will obey Him.
980 00:57:26 我想让你们明白是怎么回事I want you guys to understand what's happening.
981 00:57:29 这是团结的声音This is the sound of unity.
982 00:57:30 这是战士蓄势待发的声音This is the sound of a warrior, and that means business.
983 00:57:35 嘿呐嘿 ♪ Hey-na-hey ♪
984 00:57:36 嘿呐嘿…♪ Hey-na-hey-na-hey-na-hey ♪
985 00:57:39 嘿呐嘿 ♪ Hey-na-hey ♪
986 00:57:43 嘿呐嘿…♪ Hey-na-hey-na-hey-na-hey ♪
987 00:57:46 我是战士… ♪ I'm a warrior ♪
988 00:57:47 我是战士，我是战士… ♪ I'm a warrior, I'm a warrior… ♪
989 00:57:50 你预言了这次自由游行You prophesied of this Freedom March.
990 00:57:52 今天是属于你的 天父-It belongs to you, Father. - Yes!
991 00:57:54 现在你让你的战士们Right now, what's happening is you are bringing your warriors
992 00:57:58 摆好阵列in formation!
993 00:58:03 把你的改革 - -♪ Bring Your reformation ♪
994 00:58:05 把你的改革 ♪ Bring Your reformation ♪
995 00:58:08 把你的改革 ♪ Bring Your reformation ♪
996 00:58:10 带到这个国家！♪ To this nation ♪
997 00:58:12 狮子♪ The Lion, the Lion ♪
998 00:58:14 犹大狮子♪ The Lion of Judah ♪
999 00:58:16 在怒吼♪ Is roaring, is roaring ♪
1000 00:58:19 在为我怒吼♪ Is roaring for me ♪
1001 00:58:21 狮子♪ The Lion, the Lion ♪
1002 00:58:23 犹大狮子♪ The Lion of Judah ♪
1003 00:58:25 在怒吼…♪ Is roaring, is roaring… ♪
1004 00:59:39 我从生命之光团体会那节开始读I'm gonna read from the section about a group gathering at Living Hope.
1005 00:59:45 那时候你几岁？How old were you during this time?
1006 00:59:47 开始的时候我17岁I was 17 when I started it,
1007 00:59:49 然后我觉得一直坚持到了and then this goes pretty much like up through the end of college,
1008 00:59:52 大学毕业I would say.
1009 00:59:55 “我第一次烫伤自己"The first time I burned myself,
1010 00:59:56 是在参加完生命之光的见面会后 坐在教堂外的路边 I was sitting on a curb outside of the church after a Living Hope meeting."
1011 01:00:00 我的香烟渐渐熄灭时 我没有多想"As my cigarette burned low, without giving it much thought,
1012 01:00:03 把燃烧着的那一头按到我的肩膀上 听着我左臂的皮肤I shoved the burning end of it into my shoulder and listened
1013 01:00:06 发出咝咝的声音as the skin on my left arm sizzled."
1014 01:00:09 那晚之后不久 我独自坐在自己的房间里"Shortly after that night, I sat alone in my room,
1015 01:00:12 迷失在一阵恐惧之中 痛苦 且自我厌恶lost in a whirlwind of fear, agony, and self-loathing."
1016 01:00:15 这时我想起了香烟的灼烧"That's when I remembered the cigarette burn
1017 01:00:17 想起了火灼烧我皮肤的那一刻 一股超脱之感and the wave of detachment that washed through my body
1018 01:00:20 流过我的全身the moment the fire seared my skin."
1019 01:00:22 我在房间寻找 在火中会发热的金属物体"After scanning my room for ment-- metal objects that would heat under fire,
1020 01:00:26 最后决定用一枚25美分硬币I landed on a quarter."
1021 01:00:27 我用镊子夹住硬币 把它放到打火机的火焰中"Clamping the quarter with tweezers, I plunged it into the flame of a lighter,
1022 01:00:31 随着硬币变热 我的心跳加快了my heart rate rising as the coin heated up."
1023 01:00:34 我吸一口气 紧紧绷住我的左臂 把那枚硬币深压进我的肉中"I inhaled, flexed my left arm, and pressed the quarter deep in my flesh
1024 01:00:38 直到皮肤破损 疼痛麻木until the skin broke and the pain numbed."
1025 01:00:41 那天下午 我重复了这个过程至少20次"I repeated the process at least 20 times that afternoon,
1026 01:00:45 我的肩膀上烧出了几条笔直的线条 每条都有几厘米宽searing straight lines into my shoulder, each a few inches wide."
1027 01:00:50 有几个星期 我每天早晚都在伤口处"For weeks, I engaged in a routine of applying Neosporin to the wounds
1028 01:00:53 涂消炎软膏every morning and evening."
1029 01:00:55 在那些时刻 我和我的身体都很安全"We were safe in those moments, me and my body."
1030 01:00:58 我可以卷起我的上衣袖子 露我的伤口"I could roll up my shirt sleeve, expose my wounds,
1031 01:01:01 就会感受到温柔与同情and be met with tenderness and compassion."
1032 01:01:04 在后来几年里 当这种痛苦变得难以忍受"In the years that followed, when the anguish became unbearable,
1033 01:01:07 我就会求助于这一过程I would return to this routine,
1034 01:01:09 在肩膀上灼烧出一条条直线 并独自疗伤 自我抚慰burning straight lines into my shoulders and tending to the wounds to self-soothe."
1035 01:01:15 我听说抑郁被称为转向内心的愤怒"I've heard depression described as anger turned inward."
1036 01:01:18 也许我在寝室这些年都是这样度过的"Perhaps that's what I was doing in my dorm room all those years ago."
1037 01:01:21 我很愤怒 因为我被困在这个肉体中"I took the rage I felt about living in a body that couldn't be submitted
1038 01:01:25 它无法被赋予原本的模样into the kind of body it was supposed to be,
1039 01:01:27 一个异性恋的身体、女性的身体 虔诚基督徒的身体a straight body, a feminine body, a good Christian body,
1040 01:01:31 然后我灼伤了它”and I lit it on fire."
1041 01:01:37 -我爱你 宝贝 -我爱你- I love you, babe. - I love you.
1042 01:01:40 对不起I'm sorry.
1043 01:01:43 是啊 挺让人难过的Yeah, it's kind of intense.
1044 01:01:49 对 是的Yeah, it is.
1045 01:01:52 俄勒冈州 波特兰
1046 01:02:09 多年来Over the years,
1047 01:02:10 我的同性恋倾向越来越难以…it was increasingly harder to keep my homosexuality--
1048 01:02:13 难以控制keeping the lid on it.
1049 01:02:16 我主要是使用色情作品Primarily, it was through use of pornography,
1050 01:02:19 这会被我妻子发现 让她很烦恼which my wife would discover, and it would very much trouble her.
1051 01:02:24 我能理解这为什么会让她烦恼I can understand why it would trouble her.
1052 01:02:27 这是一种威胁It was threatening.
1053 01:02:28 是不顺从It was disobedient.
1054 01:02:31 这意味着… 是否意味着我要变成原来的样子了？It meant-- Did it mean I was reverting back?
1055 01:02:36 我记得有一天她来跟我说：I remember her turning to me one day and saying,
1056 01:02:38 “约翰 你为什么就不能顺从呢？"John, why can't you just obey?"
1057 01:02:42 你为何不能依着神的旨意做决定？”"Why can't you make the Godly decision?"
1058 01:02:47 我记得对她说：And I remember saying to her,
1059 01:02:50 “我不知道”"I-- I-- don't know."
1060 01:02:57 我不知道那种感觉为什么没有消失I don't know why it didn't go away.
1061 01:02:59 也不知道如何让它消失I don't know how to make it go away.
1062 01:03:02 情况变得更糟 随着年龄的增长 越来越严重It's getting worse. The older I get, it's getting worse.
1063 01:03:10 我发现身边都是爱我的人I found myself surrounded by people who loved me,
1064 01:03:16 我的妻子和儿子们my wife and my sons,
1065 01:03:18 但我却感到异常孤独and I felt all alone.
1066 01:03:22 我…I…
1067 01:03:25 渴望被男人爱 也渴望爱一个男人ached to be loved and to love a man.
1068 01:03:32 我已经变得And I had gotten to the point where
1069 01:03:36 所有这一切的根本原因the root causes of all this
1070 01:03:39 不再重要了didn't matter anymore.
1071 01:03:41 从圣经的角度来看 这件事的对错已经不再重要了The right or wrong of this, biblically, didn't matter anymore.
1072 01:03:47 我想：“如果我不踏上这段旅程 去弄清楚我是谁的话I thought, "If I don't go on this journey to figure out who I am,
1073 01:03:52 我会结束自己的生命”I will take my life."
1074 01:03:54 我会结束自己的生命I will take my life.
1075 01:04:02 2000年
1076 01:04:16 我当时在华盛顿特区开会I was in Washington D.C. for meetings,
1077 01:04:19 然后就开始喝酒and I started drinking.
1078 01:04:24 我喝醉了I got intoxicated,
1079 01:04:25 进了同性恋酒吧and I went into a gay bar.
1080 01:04:29 有人走过来认出了我是谁Someone came up to me and recognized who I was.
1081 01:04:33 说真的 我当时到底在想什么？I mean, really, what was I thinking?
1082 01:04:37 有人打电话叫来了一位同性恋活动家 他在酒吧外面There was a gay activist that was called. He was outside the bar.
1083 01:04:41 我拿手挡住脸的时候 他拍了一张照片And he took a photograph of me with my hand in front of my face
1084 01:04:45 还有一张我在街上落荒而逃的照片and me running down the street.
1085 01:05:05 那天是周一早上It was a Monday morning.
1086 01:05:09 我走进我的办公室 我知道约翰在里面And I got into my office, and I knew that John was there.
1087 01:05:13 他是我的朋友He was a friend of mine.
1088 01:05:14 他来到我的办公室So he comes into my office,
1089 01:05:16 我想我们可以聊聊天、叙叙旧and I thought we would just chat and catch up.
1090 01:05:19 但他在发抖 他坐在我的椅子上 几乎不看我一眼And he was shaking. He sat on my chair. He barely looked at me.
1091 01:05:23 我知道这件事马上就会传出去 所以我撒了个谎I knew this was gonna come out immediately, so I lied.
1092 01:05:28 我说我不知道那是同性恋酒吧 我是去那里上厕所的 I said I didn't know it was a gay bar, and I had gone in there to use the bathroom.
1093 01:05:32 任何有点脑子的人都觉得 “别装了 约翰”Well, any person with half a brain realized, "Come on, John."
1094 01:05:37 他知道事情比他告诉我们的 还要严重得多He knew it was much bigger than what he was telling us.
1095 01:05:41 我很替他感到难过And I felt so bad for him
1096 01:05:43 因为他靠在椅子上 端着咖啡because he was leaning over in the chair with his cup of coffee,
1097 01:05:47 他说了一句话 我永远忘不了which I'll never forget, and saying,
1098 01:05:51 “希望我没有给这场运动造成伤害”"I hope I didn't hurt the movement."
1099 01:05:54 他一直这么说： “希望我没有给这场运动造成伤害”And that's what he kept saying, "I hope I didn't hurt the movement."
1100 01:05:59 我当时…I was so…
1101 01:06:02 就想：“怎么会这样？”like, "What in the world?"
1102 01:06:05 不到五分钟 电话就开始响了And not within five minutes, the phone started ringing off the wall.
1103 01:06:10 每个人都觉得约翰很棒 他很了不起Everybody just thought John was amazing, that he hung the moon.
1104 01:06:15 他很成功、口才很好 他的见证都很棒He was successful. He was eloquent. He had a great testimony.
1105 01:06:20 就像所有杰出的、有魅力的领导者And just like any prominent, charismatic leader,
1106 01:06:24 打破了观众的完美想象一样who doesn't live up to their audience's ideals,
1107 01:06:28 他从同性恋酒吧逃跑被抓现行的时候when he was busted running from the gay bar,
1108 01:06:31 所有人都震惊了it sent everybody into a shock.
1109 01:06:35 前同性恋者被基督教团体
1110 01:06:38 团体把保克从职位上除名
1111 01:06:41 前同性恋者教会主席下台
1112 01:06:47 我妻子受够了My wife had had enough.
1113 01:06:49 她提交了法律离婚文件She filed legal separation papers.
1114 01:06:52 她跟我离婚了She divorced me.
1115 01:06:56 我这辈子从没有一天诚实过I had never been honest a day in my life.
1116 01:07:01 全是谎言 一次又一次…It was lie, after lie, after lie, after lie.
1117 01:07:16 约翰离开那场运动时 我印象深刻When John left the movement, it was very memorable
1118 01:07:19 因为他对整个运动的影响很大 because of his impact on the movement as a whole, um,
1119 01:07:24 但出埃及的运转并没有受到阻碍but as far as the functioning of Exodus, it continued unhindered.
1120 01:07:29 2003年
1121 01:07:30 是的 我是兰迪托马斯Um, yes, my name is Randy Thomas.
1122 01:07:31 2003年
1123 01:07:31 我是出埃及的执行副主席I'm the executive vice president for Exodus.
1124 01:07:33 我是出埃及的执行副主席I'm the executive vice president for Exodus.
1125 01:07:33 我们在加拿大和美国 有近200家会员机构We have almost 200 member agencies in Canada and the United States.
1126 01:07:39 出埃及于2003年开始变得更政治化Exodus started getting more political in 2003.
1127 01:07:43 我们开始前往华盛顿特区 参加宗教右翼领袖We started traveling to D.C. to participate in meetings and events
1128 01:07:49 和权力掮客的会议和活动with religious-right leaders and power brokers.
1129 01:07:53 卡尔·罗夫乔治·布什的高级顾问
1130 01:07:53 他们知道自己在人性化处理事情上 存在问题They knew that they had a problem humanizing the issues.
1131 01:07:57 卡尔·罗夫乔治·布什的高级顾问
1132 01:07:57 纽特·金里奇前众议院议长
1133 01:07:58 我们去那里帮助他们解决那个问题And we were there to help them fix that problem.
1134 01:08:01 纽特·金里奇前众议院议长
1135 01:08:02 他们不能说：They couldn't say,
1136 01:08:04 “我们的观点 比性少数群体的观点更健康”"Our views are healthier than gay-- LGBTQ views,"
1137 01:08:08 但是他们可以but they can.
1138 01:08:14 在布什执政期间There was a huge push
1139 01:08:16 共和党控制的国会两院时to do everything that we could while Bush was in office
1140 01:08:19 有一股巨大的力量推动我们and both houses of Congress were Republican-controlled
1141 01:08:23 尽一切可能 甚至永远地 阻止性少数群体的 to stave off LGBTQ rights
1142 01:08:28 正当权利 as much as possible, and maybe forever.
1143 01:08:30 男女之间的婚姻是最理想的Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal,
1144 01:08:33 总统的工作是将政策推向理想and the job of the president is to drive policy toward the ideal.
1145 01:08:38 耶！
1146 01:08:40 就在午夜之后Just after midnight,
1147 01:08:41 数千人在马萨诸塞州 庆祝曾经的梦想变成了现实thousands celebrated what was once just a dream in Massachusetts.
1148 01:08:46 出埃及对政治最重要的价值The most important investment Exodus made into politics
1149 01:08:52 是关于婚姻的斗争was over the marriage battle.
1150 01:08:54 那对我们来说非常重要That was so important to us
1151 01:08:57 因为我们在提倡一种理想化的生活because we were promoting an idealized version of life.
1152 01:09:02 对于我们教会中的人来讲Gay marriage felt like an existential threat
1153 01:09:06 同性婚姻对我们的理想化目标 是一种威胁against our idealized goals for people in our ministries.
1154 01:09:12 他们从自己的文化中看到 与自己真正喜欢和爱的人结婚They were seeing the culture say it's healthy and good
1155 01:09:17 是健康和美好的to marry the person that you're truly attracted to and love.
1156 01:09:20 我们必须反驳这一观点Well, we had to counter that message.
1157 01:09:23 想知道我为什么 那么努力为婚姻问题斗争吗？You wanna know why I fight so hard for the marriage issue?
1158 01:09:24 2008年出埃及年会
1159 01:09:27 2008年出埃及年会
1160 01:09:28 因为婚姻超越了我们对它的理解Because marriage transcends what we understand of it
1161 01:09:32 2008年出埃及年会
1162 01:09:32 而且带有上帝的形象and bears the image of God.
1163 01:09:32 而且带有上帝的形象and bears the image of God.
1164 01:09:34 在加州同性伴侣结婚已经合法化了Same-sex couples have been getting legally married in California,
1165 01:09:38 但如果8号提案通过 婚礼将会停止but the ceremonies will stop if Proposition 8 passes,
1166 01:09:42 该提案将修改加州宪法amending California's constitution
1167 01:09:44 将婚姻仅定义为so it defines marriage as only between one man
1168 01:09:48 一男一女之间and one woman.
1169 01:09:50 我从2008年夏天开始为出埃及工作I started working for Exodus in the summer of 2008,
1170 01:09:54 就在大选之前so right before the elections.
1171 01:09:58 加入后我立即开始了8号提案的工作And I went to work on the Prop 8 campaign immediately.
1172 01:10:05 我受邀参加那个活动I was invited to this event,
1173 01:10:07 那里有摄像机and they had cameras there
1174 01:10:09 这样整个加州教会里的人so that people in churches all across
1175 01:10:13 都能看到我们在举办的活动the state of California could watch this event that we're putting on.
1176 01:10:17 我无意冒犯 但男人和女人的I don't mean to be crass, but men and women's body parts
1177 01:10:20 身体部位可以结合在一起 成为一个有机体系fit together to become a single organism…
1178 01:10:25 从而……for…
1179 01:10:31 从而创造出下一代…for the purpose of creating children.
1180 01:10:34 如果性取向If sexual orientation
1181 01:10:37 或性吸引力是我们准许结婚的基础or sexual attractions were the basis upon which we were allowed to marry,
1182 01:10:42 那么恋童癖者应该被允 许与六、七、八岁的孩子结婚then pedophiles would have to be allowed to marry six-, seven-, eight-year-olds.
1183 01:10:48 母亲们和儿子们Mothers and sons,
1184 01:10:50 兄弟姐妹们 任何的结合都必须得到允许sisters and brothers, any-- any combination would have to be allowed.
1185 01:10:54 很多一部分讲的是滑坡理论 A big part of the message was the slippery slope argument.
1186 01:10:59 好吧 你现在是说 两个女人或者两个男人可以Okay, so you're saying two women or two men now,
1187 01:11:02 那以后会变成什么？but then what's it gonna become?
1188 01:11:05 我只是知道人们的恐惧It's just knowing the fears that people have.
1189 01:11:10 如果他们持观望态度 我要说什么What is it that I can say that is really going to scare them,
1190 01:11:15 才能真正吓到他们？if they're on the fence?
1191 01:11:18 很多人都持观望态度And a lot of people were on the fence
1192 01:11:21 有点矛盾的态度 人们会想and just sort of ambivalent one way or the other, and you think,
1193 01:11:24 “谁在乎这对我有什么影响？"Oh well, you know, who cares how this is gonna affect me?"
1194 01:11:27 瞧好了 这就是对你的影响”"This is how it's gonna affect you."
1195 01:11:30 为8号提案举行祈祷集会
1196 01:11:33 教会强调说： “你们要在这个问题上投赞成票”Churches made a point of saying, "You are voting yes on this."
1197 01:11:37 教会强调说： “你们要在这个问题上投赞成票”Churches made a point of saying, "You are voting yes on this."
1198 01:11:38 我相信这就是推进8号提案的力量I'm convinced that this is what pushed Prop 8 over,
1199 01:11:42 是它通过的原因why it passed.
1200 01:11:44 是上帝的仁慈让我们忏悔It's the kindness of God that leads us to repent.
1201 01:11:49 是上帝的仁慈…It's the kindness of God…
1202 01:11:50 很多教堂聚集在一起So many churches coming together.
1203 01:11:53 在8号提案前 我从没见过这样的事情I've never seen something like that happen before,
1204 01:11:56 从来都没有过ever, before Prop 8.
1205 01:12:11 8号提案通过时When Prop 8 passed,
1206 01:12:12 我当时还不是奥巴马的支持者I was not an Obama supporter at the time.
1207 01:12:15 当时我说：“真是的 奥巴马赢了”Back then, I was like, "Ugh, Obama won."
1208 01:12:17 你知道吗？You know?
1209 01:12:18 但是8号提案通过了！But Prop 8 passed!
1210 01:12:20 我在社交媒体上强撑着自己You know, and I was talking up a good game on social media.
1211 01:12:25 数千人在加州游行Thousands marched in California,
1212 01:12:27 抗议选举之夜通过8号提案protesting the election night passage of Proposition 8.
1213 01:12:30 大批人群抗议禁止同性婚姻的A massive protest on the passage of Proposition 8,
1214 01:12:33 8号提案通过the ban on same-sex marriage.
1215 01:12:36 我从未有过这种感觉…I had never felt such a sense of…
1216 01:12:39 感觉自己低人一等of being less of a person.
1217 01:12:40 -你哭了 -对- You're crying. -Yeah.
1218 01:12:43 我为我们的州感到羞耻I'm just ashamed of our state.
1219 01:12:45 紧急新闻 8号提案旧金山
1220 01:12:47 但我永远不会忘记那个晚上 看着新闻时的心情But I'll never forget that night, watching the news.
1221 01:12:51 紧急新闻 8号提案旧金山
1222 01:13:11 看到和我一类的人们Seeing my community…
1223 01:13:15 当时我没有意识到 但我心里知道Back then, I didn't realize it, but I knew in my heart.
1224 01:13:18 看着和我一类的人们走上街头Watching my community take to the streets…
1225 01:13:23 哀悼8号提案通过and mourning the passage of Prop 8.
1226 01:13:28 当我看电视的时候When I looked at the TV,
1227 01:13:30 我内心有一个声音说and a voice inside me said,
1228 01:13:32 “你怎么能这样对自己人？”"How could you do that to your own people?"
1229 01:13:41 我看到那些人在哭And I saw these men crying.
1230 01:13:45 我知道他们的梦想被粉碎了And I knew that their dreams had just been shattered.
1231 01:13:50 从那以后我就无法像以前那样说话了And I couldn't talk the same way after that.
1232 01:13:59 我们都值得
1233 01:14:18 8号提案之后 我开始极度焦虑After Prop 8, I started having extreme anxiety,
1234 01:14:23 恐慌发作panic attacks.
1235 01:14:25 我们开车去参加出埃及会议We were driving down to an Exodus conference,
1236 01:14:29 大概开了两个小时and we were probably two hours into the drive,
1237 01:14:32 我就开始恐慌发作了and I started having a panic attack.
1238 01:14:36 每当我要做一些与出埃及 或者前同性恋Every time I'm going to do something that's related to Exodus
1239 01:14:41 有关的事情时or ex-gay things,
1240 01:14:43 我就会恐慌发作I'm gonna have these panic attacks.
1241 01:14:45 我还是不知道I still didn't know.
1242 01:14:47 我不知道为什么I didn't know why.
1243 01:14:49 美国职业心理学学校
1244 01:14:54 我见到一位心理治疗师I met with this therapist,
1245 01:14:56 她说：“很明显你有创伤and she said, "Obviously you have trauma here,
1246 01:14:59 因为你表现出的症状 像是创伤后应激障碍”because you're exhibiting symptoms that are more like PTSD."
1247 01:15:05 就在那时 我才真正明白And that's when it really started to dawn on me.
1248 01:15:08 我出问题了There's something wrong.
1249 01:15:10 这状况甚至不是有意识的So it wasn't even conscious.
1250 01:15:12 一开始更多是身体上的It was more physical at first,
1251 01:15:14 我的身体不允许我继续下去了where my body just would not allow me to continue.
1252 01:15:18 当我们谈起前同性恋运动的时候When we're talking about the ex-gay movement,
1253 01:15:21 主旨是想成为团体的一部分it's wanting to be part of a group.
1254 01:15:24 想要有归属It's wanting to belong,
1255 01:15:26 这些都是我的同类人and here are my people.
1256 01:15:28 和我一样挣扎的人Here are people who have the same struggles as I do.
1257 01:15:31 所以你要遵守团体的规则So you're going to abide by the rules of the group.
1258 01:15:36 即使有羞耻感And even if there's shame involved,
1259 01:15:38 对于你所得到的东西来说 似乎只是一个很小的代价it seems like a small price to pay for what you're getting.
1260 01:15:42 这是贯穿我们的工作 来理解羞耻的…That was the major theme throughout our work…
1261 01:15:45 是的Yeah.
1262 01:15:46 …主要主题…to understand shame.
1263 01:15:48 这种“我错了”的内在感觉 令人感到羞耻Shame being this inherent feeling of, "I am wrong."
1264 01:15:54 -对 -“我很糟糕”-Right. -"I am bad."
1265 01:15:55 我认为我们所有人都一直在努力 设法解决这一问题I think we all struggle all the time with trying to manage that.
1266 01:16:00 现在在你的人生中 没有人会告诉你要做什么You're in a place now in your life where nobody's gonna tell you what to do,
1267 01:16:05 没有人会告诉你你是谁and no one's gonna tell you who you are.
1268 01:16:09 简直是天差地别It's so different.
1269 01:16:11 因为我在这个房间待了九年'Cause I've spent nine years in this room,
1270 01:16:14 在这段时间里我改变了太多and I've changed so much in that time.
1271 01:16:18 我跟以前完全不一样了I'm nothing like what I was.
1272 01:16:20 完全不一样了Nothing.
1273 01:16:24 拼图碎片要拼凑起来了The puzzle pieces were coming together.
1274 01:16:28 即使我对同性间的吸引有感觉Even with the same-sex attractions in myself,
1275 01:16:32 那种感觉从未消失过those never went away.
1276 01:16:35 这是改变吗？Is that change, then?
1277 01:16:37 因为之前我只是通过行动上定义改变Because before I had been defining change on actions alone.
1278 01:16:41 然后我就想： “那感觉真的消失了吗？”Then I'm thinking, "Well, did that really go away?"
1279 01:16:46 不！我只是改变了No! I just changed
1280 01:16:49 我和人们的关系how-- what my connections with people were.
1281 01:16:53 我只是避开了一些事情And I just avoided things.
1282 01:16:57 但我真的变了吗？But did I really change?
1283 01:17:03 该我走了 - -And I gotta move.
1284 01:17:07 我会把自己归为双性恋I would classify myself as bisexual.
1285 01:17:11 我爱我的丈夫I love my husband.
1286 01:17:13 我已经结婚很久了Been married for a long time.
1287 01:17:16 然后我就知道了 我男女都可以And then I knew, okay, then I have the capacity for both.
1288 01:17:23 这两个性别都对我有吸引力You know, I-- I'm attracted to both.
1289 01:17:27 -该你了 -其实我可以用上这个- There you go. -Actually, that kind of works out for me.
1290 01:17:30 你作弊 因为今天是母亲节You're cheating because it's Mother's Day.
1291 01:17:33 对Yep.
1292 01:17:52 太棒了Ugh! This is so great.
1293 01:17:53 我知道！看起来真壮观I know! Such a great view.
1294 01:17:56 会很漂亮的Wow. It's gonna be so gorgeous.
1295 01:17:59 哇Wow.
1296 01:18:01 你们会作为夫妻走出去You guys will walk out as a couple,
1297 01:18:04 然后如果你们想在主圣坛 拍摄婚纱照的话and then if you're thinking about doing formals at the high altar,
1298 01:18:07 我们会把你们藏起来 然后让客人们离开we'll stash you away, and then let your guests clear out.
1299 01:18:10 鸡尾酒时间一到 你们就回来When cocktail hour is in full swing, you'll come back up.
1300 01:18:13 我的天啊！-Oh my goodness! -Yeah.
1301 01:18:14 你能帮我们拍张照吗？我们太兴奋了Will you take a picture of us? We're just so excited.
1302 01:18:17 -你想朝哪个方向？ -两个方向都拍！-Which way do you wanna face? -We'll do both!
1303 01:18:20 当我还在生命之光的时候When I was still involved at Living Hope,
1304 01:18:23 我非常沮丧I was severely, severely, severely depressed,
1305 01:18:26 但我不知道为什么 我会不知所措或悲伤but I didn't know why I was overwhelmed or sad.
1306 01:18:32 我一直觉得自己像个怪物And I always felt like such a freak.
1307 01:18:34 就好像“我出什么问题了？Like, oh, like, "What's wrong with me?"
1308 01:18:36 我完全是个疯子 灼烧并伤害我自己的身体”"Like, I'm a total maniac, like, burning up and hurting my own body,"
1309 01:18:40 这样那样的 因为我并没有把这些and this and that, because I didn't see it
1310 01:18:44 归因于是我周围的体制和文化as a result of, like, the system and the culture
1311 01:18:48 让我讨厌我自己around me that made me hate myself.
1312 01:18:51 我一直相信上帝会帮助我过一种I continued to believe that God will help me live a life
1313 01:18:54 纯洁且神圣的生活of purity and holiness.
1314 01:18:58 我在出埃及大会上演讲过 在他们的博客上写过文章I was speaking at Exodus conferences and doing writing on their blog,
1315 01:19:03 我被视为运动的领导者and I was seen as a leader within the movement.
1316 01:19:11 凌志慧：我们的美国2013年
1317 01:19:13 在同性恋权利运动 获得开天辟地的进展时 While the gay rights movement breaks historic ground,
1318 01:19:15 凌志慧：我们的美国2013年
1319 01:19:15 前同性恋运动的叛逃者队伍the ranks of defectors from the ex-gay movement,
1320 01:19:18 凌志慧：我们的美国2013年
1321 01:19:18 就是所谓的“脱离前同性恋者”so-called "ex-ex-gays,"
1322 01:19:20 就是所谓的“脱离前同性恋者”so-called "ex-ex-gays,"
1323 01:19:20 也越来越声势浩大are growing and growing louder.
1324 01:19:23 前同性恋者 不可能！ 别相信他们说的话！Ex-gay, no way! Don't believe a word they say! Ex-gay…
1325 01:19:28 迈克尔布西在帮助他们 找到自己的声音Michael Bussee is helping them find their voice.
1326 01:19:31 在创立出埃及几十年后 他找到了新的使命Decades after founding Exodus, he has found a new calling.
1327 01:19:36 我几年前退休了 现在和那些I retired a few years ago and now pretty much deal
1328 01:19:39 从修复治疗项目出来的人打交道with folks who come out of reparative therapy programs.
1329 01:19:41 我在脸书上有几个在线小组I have a couple of online groups I do on Facebook.
1330 01:19:45 在过去的几十年里 我一直是一个坦率的前领导人For the past several decades, I've been an outspoken former leader,
1331 01:19:48 努力教育人们 让他们了解这些项目的危害trying to educate people about the harm that these programs do
1332 01:19:52 同时也在幸存者把真相说出来时 对他们给予支持and also supporting survivors as they speak out.
1333 01:19:58 如果有人离开 再也没有联络之后If somebody left, we didn't hear from them again.
1334 01:20:03 他们的内部讨论是这样的：The way they were talked about internally was like,
1335 01:20:05 “他们投靠了黑暗的一面 屈服了肉体”"Oh, they've gone to the dark side, they've given in to the flesh."
1336 01:20:08 就是这种疯狂的说法 他们走了 他们对我们来说已经死了Just this kind of this crazy talk of like, they are gone. They are dead to us.
1337 01:20:14 出埃及总是试图 与幸存者的故事保持距离 Exodus always tried to distance themselves from the stories of survivors.
1338 01:20:19 他们想说：“哦 那些是异常情况They tried to say, "Oh, those are the outliers."
1339 01:20:22 是的 在每个组织中 都有一些人受到伤害"Yeah, in every organization, there are some people who are harmed
1340 01:20:25 或者…但那不是绝大多数人”or who-- but that's not the vast majority of people."
1341 01:20:30 但媒体开始关注起那些遭遇But the press started picking up these stories
1342 01:20:32 那些人们被前同性恋项目伤害的故事of people that had been harmed by ex-gay programs.
1343 01:20:36 这使得出埃及更难去忽视他们That made it harder for Exodus to ignore them.
1344 01:20:41 有一天我写了一篇博客文章I wrote a blog post one day
1345 01:20:45 要发表在出埃及的网站上to publish on Exodus's site.
1346 01:20:47 在最后 我跟前同性恋幸存者说And I basically, toward the end of it, spoke to ex-gay survivors and said like,
1347 01:20:52 “抱歉…"I'm so sorry…"
1348 01:20:54 很抱歉你经历了这些事情"I'm so sorry that you went through this,
1349 01:20:55 很抱歉 你处在现在的位置and I'm so sorry that you didn't hear that God loves you, like, right now,
1350 01:20:59 并没有感受到上帝的爱”like exactly where you are."
1351 01:21:00 最后我说： “希望有一天能听听你的故事”I said at the end of it, "I hope someday I can hear your stories."
1352 01:21:05 迈克尔布西找到了我Michael Bussee reached out to me,
1353 01:21:06 他说：“你说过你想去听 幸存者的故事and he was like, "You said you wanted to hear the stories of survivors."
1354 01:21:10 我可以创建一个脸书群组 让大家进行某种交流”"I can create a Facebook group for us to have some sort of exchange."
1355 01:21:14 我就说 好啊 我真的想听And so I was like, okay, like, I meant that.
1356 01:21:17 75人同意参与进来Seventy-five people agreed to be a part of it.
1357 01:21:20 他们中很多人对我都很亲切So many of them were really gracious to me,
1358 01:21:22 考虑到我所代表的立场 以及和出埃及之间的关系considering what I represented, being connected to Exodus.
1359 01:21:26 他们也非常诚实地说 前同性恋所传达的观点And yet they were very honest about how much ex-gay teaching
1360 01:21:30 把他们的生活毁成了什么样子had ruined their lives.
1361 01:21:34 后来What ends up happening is
1362 01:21:35 淩志慧找到出埃及和迈克尔布西Lisa Ling reaches out to Exodus
1363 01:21:39 她说：“我听说了这个群组and Michael Bussee and is like, "I heard about this group going on."
1364 01:21:42 你们有没有兴趣在电视上播出？”"Would y'all be interested in doing it on air?"
1365 01:21:46 我当时是出埃及的主席I was the president of Exodus at the time.
1366 01:21:49 我觉得倾听他们的故事很重要And I thought it was important that I listened to their stories.
1367 01:21:54 他们汇集了一群人They came up with… with a group of people, um,
1368 01:21:55 艾伦·钱伯斯出埃及前主席
1369 01:21:57 艾伦·钱伯斯出埃及前主席
1370 01:21:57 其中一些人我有直接联系 大多数人我都没有some of whom I'd had direct contact with, most of whom I hadn't.
1371 01:22:01 艾伦·钱伯斯出埃及前主席
1372 01:22:02 我们在一个教堂的地下室见面We met in a church basement
1373 01:22:04 经历了我经历过的and had the most intense
1374 01:22:08 最紧张的集体心理辅导group therapy encounter that I have ever been through.
1375 01:22:19 这里的每个幸存者都有不同的级别Each survivor here comes
1376 01:22:21 有些人刚出柜from a different level. Some of them are fresh out.
1377 01:22:22 有些人已经幸存了12年Some of us have been surviving for 12 years,
1378 01:22:26 会找机会跟你说： “我变成这样 你是有责任的waiting for a moment to look at you and say, "You are responsible
1379 01:22:29 因为你之前应该有机会 看到我们的伤口because you've had opportunities to see our wounds before,
1380 01:22:32 而你却什么都没做”and you've not done anything about it."
1381 01:22:34 讽刺的是The irony of it is
1382 01:22:36 我觉得我一直努力做正确的事 却丢失了灵魂I feel I lost my soul in trying to do the right thing all the time.
1383 01:22:40 不是因为做了错事 不是因为“屈服”Not from doing the wrong thing, not from "giving in."
1384 01:22:42 我丢失了灵魂 就因为我做了正确的事I lost my soul because I did the right thing.
1385 01:22:46 有些孩子们And these kids,
1386 01:22:48 选择了自杀they're killing themselves
1387 01:22:50 因为不断有人对他们说because of things that continue to be said to them,
1388 01:22:53 他们不够优秀that they're not good enough,
1389 01:22:55 他们本来的样子一点都不美and that they're not beautiful as they are.
1390 01:22:57 这些我都不能接受 我不能再保持沉默了And I am not okay with that, and I can be silent no longer.
1391 01:23:06 这绝对是毁灭性的 我认为对我来说It was absolutely devastating, and I think for me, it was the first time
1392 01:23:11 那是我第一次更加深刻地体会到 幸存者分享他们的故事that I identified more with the survivors sharing their story
1393 01:23:15 而不是向以前一样 从出埃及的人那里道听途说than I did with anybody from Exodus.
1394 01:23:21 这些充满深深痛苦的故事These stories of deep, deep pain
1395 01:23:25 震撼了我的内心shook me down to my core.
1396 01:23:27 感觉他们在很多方面Feeling like they were in many ways
1397 01:23:32 就是在分享我的故事sharing my story.
1398 01:23:38 我记得我感觉自己选错了边I remember feeling like I was sitting on the wrong side of the circle.
1399 01:23:43 我就觉得And I was just like,
1400 01:23:44 我不能再这样了I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't do this anymore.
1401 01:23:47 我不能参与了 太毒害人了Like, I can't be a part of it. This is just so toxic.
1402 01:23:54 淩志慧的节目播出后When the Lisa Ling show came out,
1403 01:23:57 我就知道出埃及完蛋了I knew then that Exodus was death,
1404 01:24:00 彻底被摧毁and it was destruction.
1405 01:24:03 因为那些幸存者直视着我们的脸Because those survivors were looking at us right in the face.
1406 01:24:08 而且我们不能再找借口了 我们不能再否认了And we could no longer excuse it away. We could no longer deny it.
1407 01:24:13 出埃及不能再继续提倡And that Exodus could no longer continue
1408 01:24:17 改变性取向的想法了to promote the idea of change
1409 01:24:20 因为那就一个谎言because that was a lie.
1410 01:24:23 出埃及
1411 01:24:27 2013年出埃及年会
1412 01:24:29 出埃及成立于1976年 目的是共同创建一个群体 Exodus was started in 1976 to create a community together,
1413 01:24:32 出埃及成立于1976年 目的是共同创建一个群体 Exodus was started in 1976 to create a community together,
1414 01:24:36 但我们伤害了别人but we've hurt people.
1415 01:24:39 因为这些原因And it is for these reasons
1416 01:24:41 出埃及国际组织Exodus International,
1417 01:24:43 这个专注信仰和同性恋问题的 最悠久、规模最大的基督教组织the oldest and largest Christian ministry dealing with faith and homosexuality,
1418 01:24:47 在走过30多年的风雨后正式关闭 is closing its doors… …after three-plus decades of ministry.
1419 01:25:11 出埃及关闭之后Once Exodus was ending,
1420 01:25:13 我开始试着过一种 远离生命之光的生活I started trying to build a life away from Living Hope.
1421 01:25:18 我感到失去了我的群体I felt the loss of my community,
1422 01:25:20 但我必须离开 去活得更健康but I had to leave to get healthier.
1423 01:25:25 我开始意识到我真的需要关爱 也活得很不健康I came to realize that I was really needy and unhealthy
1424 01:25:27 因为我的生活中没有一个人because there were zero people in my life
1425 01:25:31 会说：“你本来的样子就很好who ever just said like, "You're okay exactly the way you are,
1426 01:25:35 我们爱你 上帝爱你 你不需要做任何改变”and we love you, and God loves you, and you don't have to change a thing."
1427 01:25:40 从生命之光和前同性恋教育中走出来Being able to move away from Living Hope and ex-gay teaching
1428 01:25:44 承认自己是同性恋and admit that I was gay
1429 01:25:47 这其实是件好事and that that was actually, like, a good thing,
1430 01:25:49 那时候我第一次开始感到轻松和快乐for the first time, I started to feel light, and happy,
1431 01:25:53 就像上帝爱我、喜欢我 一切都好 我没问题and like God loved me and liked me, and it was just all fine, and I was fine.
1432 01:26:01 我们谈论了基督徒社区 如何在我们的生活中留下了如此多的 We've talked about how Christian communities
1433 01:26:05 痛苦和创伤 are where we've experienced so much pain and trauma in our lives.
1434 01:26:07 同时At the same time,
1435 01:26:08 这种信仰 也是我们治愈创伤的巨大源泉this faith has also been a huge source of our healing.
1436 01:26:12 我与耶稣互动的时候When I interact with Jesus,
1437 01:26:15 看到耶稣是谁 耶稣是如何生活的and see who Jesus was and how Jesus lived,
1438 01:26:18 我想：“噢 天啊 太棒了”I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's amazing."
1439 01:26:20 所以对我来说 把耶稣和伤害我的基督徒区分开And so it's been really important for me to sort of separate, I guess, like,
1440 01:26:23 是非常重要的Jesus from the Christians who hurt me.
1441 01:26:26 上周五 我在这里参加了他们纪念I was here this last Friday for a service they did, um,
1442 01:26:29 马修谢巴德的仪式honoring and remembering Matthew Shepard.
1443 01:26:31 我从来没有见过And I have never seen,
1444 01:26:33 我绝对从来没有见过 教堂里有那么多同性恋 I have absolutely never seen so many queer people in a church.
1445 01:26:39 所有这些背负了太多耻辱、太多羞辱All these people who have carried so much shame, and so much humiliation,
1446 01:26:45 和身体虐待的人and physical abuse,
1447 01:26:47 承受了这一切的人们进入教堂and all these things, um, got to come into a church,
1448 01:26:51 可能是几十年来第一次probably for the first time in decades,
1449 01:26:54 特别是听到“你们”这个词and to hear, "You specifically…"
1450 01:26:57 “你们同性恋、你们双性恋 你们变性人”"You gay person, you bisexual person, you transgender person,"
1451 01:27:01 就像“你在这里是受欢迎的 是被需要的like, "You are welcome here, and you are wanted here,
1452 01:27:05 我们尊重你们的生活 这里对你们来说是一个安全的港湾”and we honor your lives, and this is a safe place for you."
1453 01:27:09 有幸找到这样的地方Having the grace to find this kind of place,
1454 01:27:12 有这一群人来为我们祝福who's gonna speak that blessing over us and to us,
1455 01:27:17 是我们能得到的最深层的治愈之源um, is the deepest source of healing we could ever receive.
1456 01:27:34 在出埃及关闭后After Exodus ended,
1457 01:27:37 在出埃及运行之下那些相同的工作the same work that was going on under Exodus,
1458 01:27:41 所有这些教会all those ministries,
1459 01:27:43 包括里奇和生命之光都在继续工作including Ricky and Living Hope, continued doing the work.
1460 01:27:44 生命之光教会2021年
1461 01:27:47 生命之光教会2021年
1462 01:27:49 我做的是和人打交道What I do is deal with folks,
1463 01:27:49 我做的是和人打交道What I do is deal with folks,
1464 01:27:50 在大多数情况下 是与挣扎在同性恋中的人打交道for the most part, who are struggling particularly with homosexuality.
1465 01:27:50 里奇切莱特在大多数情况下 是与挣扎在同性恋中的人打交道
1466 01:27:53 里奇切莱特
1467 01:27:54 我整天花时间 - -And spending my days, spending my days
1468 01:27:57 我整天花时间 - -And spending my days, spending my days
1469 01:27:57 和那些性生活痛苦的人聊天talking with people who are sexually broken,
1470 01:28:01 告诉他们在基督里有自由 that there is freedom in Christ. There is freedom…
1471 01:28:04 转化疗法似乎在我的家乡的So, conversion therapy, it appears to be flourishing and thriving
1472 01:28:07 基督教社区发展得很兴盛in Christian communities where I come from.
1473 01:28:11 有一个组织被指控推广 一种旨在改变性取向的A group accused of promoting a controversial practice
1474 01:28:14 有争议的做法aimed at changing sexual orientation
1475 01:28:17 今天这个组织在圣地亚哥 召开了一次会议kicked off a conference in San Diego today.
1476 01:28:20 我们关闭出埃及的时候 以前的大部分领导人When we shut down Exodus, most of the old-time leadership
1477 01:28:24 都决定继续decided to continue on
1478 01:28:26 并尽可能多地带走一些人and try to take as many people as they could with them.
1479 01:28:29 重获希望网
1480 01:28:30 就这样重获希望网成立了And that's how the Restored Hope Network was born.
1481 01:28:33 重获希望网
1482 01:28:33 你得跟我们讲讲重获希望网You have to tell us about Restored Hope Network.
1483 01:28:36 重获希望网是一群像我这样 放弃了同性恋生活的人… Restored Hope Network is a network of ministries of people like me,
1484 01:28:37 安妮保克重获希望网执行董事
1485 01:28:42 安妮保克重获希望网执行董事
1486 01:28:42 …建立的教会网络who have left homosexuality,
1487 01:28:44 安妮保克重获希望网执行董事
1488 01:28:44 想要与他人分享一些成功的方法and who want to share how to do so with others.
1489 01:28:47 安妮保克重获希望网执行董事
1490 01:28:47 这就是我这么做的原因And that's exactly why I do this.
1491 01:28:49 就是要让大家知道还有希望It's to get the word out that there is hope.
1492 01:28:53 我和我爸的关系很紧张 我们不是不爱对方…My dad and I had a strained relationship, not from a lack of love for each other,
1493 01:28:54 重获希望网会议我和我爸的关系很紧张 我们不是不爱对方…
1494 01:28:58 重获希望网会议
1495 01:28:59 …而是我们无法以我需要的方式 真正建立关系 but rather an inability for us to really, truly connect in the way that I needed,
1496 01:28:59 …而是我们无法以我需要的方式 真正建立关系 but rather an inability for us to really, truly connect in the way that I needed,
1497 01:29:03 这导致了我们的怀疑和困惑leading to doubt and confusion.
1498 01:29:06 14岁时 我向父母坦白出柜了…At the age of 14, I came out to my parents…
1499 01:29:10 简直就是灌输式教育I mean, it's such indoctrination.
1500 01:29:13 他们使用的所有术语All of the lingo that they use,
1501 01:29:17 和见证的模式and the pattern of the testimony,
1502 01:29:19 甚至他们的生活模式都是如此and even the pattern of their lives.
1503 01:29:23 看着凯蒂走上红毯…Seeing Katie walk down the aisle…
1504 01:29:31 那一天我永生难忘It was a day that I'll never forget.
1505 01:29:36 我们的婚礼是对耶稣基督的真实见证And our wedding day was a true testament to Jesus Christ.
1506 01:29:44 在过去的五年里In the past five years or so,
1507 01:29:48 虽然出现了领导人的大规模反水there have been this mass defection of leaders,
1508 01:29:52 但仍有新人接过火炬 继续这些事情but there are new people taking up the torch.
1509 01:29:56 这场运动并没有 像我们想象的或认为的And it's not dying the way that we thought it would
1510 01:30:00 那样消亡or think it should.
1511 01:30:13 有一些老一辈的 前性少数群体教会做的事情There's some of the things that the older ex-LGBTQ ministries do
1512 01:30:17 我们不会去做that we don't do.
1513 01:30:21 只是方式不同而已It's just a different way.
1514 01:30:25 我觉得这些年轻一代I think it's attracted
1515 01:30:27 走上街头这件事还是有吸引力的this younger generation just going out on the streets.
1516 01:30:36 他们没有躲在会议后面Instead of being behind a conference,
1517 01:30:38 他们走到了街上去go out on the streets.
1518 01:30:40 没有躲在教堂大楼后面Instead of being behind the church building,
1519 01:30:42 而是走近人群 就好像我们在用不同的方式做这件事go out to the people. Like we're just doing it a different way.
1520 01:30:51 大家好！Hello, everybody!
1521 01:30:54 大家好！- Hello, everybody! -
1522 01:30:57 这是我们第二次年度自由游行This is our second annual Freedom March.
1523 01:31:02 我们当中有些人环游了世界Some of us have traveled all across the world.
1524 01:31:05 所有这些不同的面孔 这些不同的种族All these different faces, all these different races
1525 01:31:07 来表达观点to come and make a stand,
1526 01:31:10 让人们知道自由就在这里to come and let people know that freedom is here.
1527 01:31:12 掌声送给自由游行的 领导人杰弗里麦卡尔Give it up for the leader of Freedom March, Jeffrey McCall.
1528 01:31:21 这次的愿景是那些 放弃性少数群体的生活The vision of this is just sharing testimonies
1529 01:31:23 与上帝相遇的人of people that left the LGBTQ lifestyles,
1530 01:31:26 来分享见证that had an encounter with God.
1531 01:31:28 我们在这里一起分享我们的故事And we're here together to share our stories.
1532 01:31:32 祷告有用！Prayer works!
1533 01:31:34 我站在这里宣告耶稣基督的名And I stand here proclaiming the name of Jesus Christ,
1534 01:31:36 他是主 我爱耶稣！that He is Lord, and I love Jesus!
1535 01:31:39 你有没有躺在地板上说： “耶稣 把这个从我身上带走Have you laid on the floor and said, "Jesus, take this away from me
1536 01:31:42 因为我要跟随你 耶稣 我想成为你的儿子或女儿”because I wanna follow you, Jesus. I wanna be your son or daughter."
1537 01:31:46 主耶稣 奉耶稣基督的名 我们可以获得自由Lord Jesus, there is freedom in the name of Jesus Christ.
1538 01:31:50 我相信今天有什么在这里诞生了I believe that something is being birthed out of here today.
1539 01:31:55 天父 我请求你将我们团结成征服者Father, I ask that you will unite us as overcomers.
1540 01:31:59 主 我们希望你回到美国的前线Lord, we want you back in the forefronts of America.
1541 01:32:02 奉耶稣的名 感谢你 天父In Jesus' name, we thank you, Father.
1542 01:32:05 奉耶稣的名In Jesus' name.
1543 01:32:25 一个男同性恋Shortly after coming out,
1544 01:32:27 出柜后不久a gay person
1545 01:32:30 他非常直率地说 我的双手沾满了鲜血said very bluntly and directly that I had blood on my hands.
1546 01:32:34 他说：“你对你手上的血怎么看？”He said, "What do you think about the blood on your hands?"
1547 01:32:39 我回答：“现在…I said, "Right now…
1548 01:32:43 我只知道我害怕低头看自己的手”all I know is I'm afraid to look down at my hands."
1549 01:32:51 作为一名领导者 我所接受的培训是承认损失As a leader, I had been trained to acknowledge the loss
1550 01:32:56 但要合理化损失 学会否认but to rationalize it away, to go into denial.
1551 01:33:00 我很厌恶自己那么做And I hate that I did that.
1552 01:33:03 对于很多没有自杀的人来说And for many people who don't commit suicide,
1553 01:33:07 我们不接受上帝创造出的我们的样子we're killing ourselves internally
1554 01:33:10 就等于在内心永远杀死了自己by not embracing who God created us to be.
1555 01:33:13 我们在天上的造物主 愿人都尊你的名为圣Our Creator, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
1556 01:33:19 愿你的国降临 愿你的旨意行在地上Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done,
1557 01:33:22 如同行在天上on Earth as it is in heaven.
1558 01:33:25 我们日用的饮食Give us this day our daily bread,
1559 01:33:28 今日赐给我们and forgive us our trespasses,
1560 01:33:30 免我们的过犯 如同我们免了人的过犯as we forgive those who trespass against us.
1561 01:33:35 我不能评论过往时讲：I can't look back and say,
1562 01:33:38 “这值得原谅”或者“我值得原谅”"This deserves forgiveness," or "I deserve forgiveness,"
1563 01:33:41 因为我不值得'cause I don't.
1564 01:33:43 我做的事是错的What I did was wrong.
1565 01:33:44 大错特错It was so wrong.
1566 01:33:50 当你终于意识到 你造成了多大的伤害时When you finally realize how much harm you've done,
1567 01:33:54 那一刻简直令人崩溃it's a crushing realization.
1568 01:33:57 那是一种毁灭性的感觉It's a devastating feeling.
1569 01:34:02 但道歉能达到的效果有限But apology only goes so far.
1570 01:34:05 你不可能回到过去 把想当前同性恋的那些人You really can't go back and give people back those years
1571 01:34:08 浪费的那些年还给他们that they wasted trying to be ex-gay.
1572 01:34:10 你能做的就是 从现在开始All you can do is, from this point forward,
1573 01:34:13 积极反对这件事 强烈地反对它speak out against it, and speak out strongly against it.
1574 01:34:16 直接对着镜头说话Talk directly to the camera.
1575 01:34:18 我想让你跟你的前同事I want you to talk to your former colleagues
1576 01:34:20 谈谈他们目前仍然在做的这项工作about what they're still doing with this type of work.
1577 01:34:23 我以前是个虔诚的信徒 和你们一样Well, I used to be a true believer, just like you did.
1578 01:34:27 我绝对认为我们做的是对的I mean, I absolutely thought that what we were doing was right,
1579 01:34:31 但这件事只会粉碎灵魂but all it does is crush souls.
1580 01:34:34 会毁了人们的生活It crushes peoples' lives.
1581 01:34:36 我不能忍受我是其中的一部分I can't stand that I was a part of it,
1582 01:34:39 我希望你们能有同理心和同情心and I would hope that you would have the empathy and compassion
1583 01:34:43 明白这只会造成伤害to see that all it does is damage.
1584 01:35:27 好了 深呼吸Okay, take a deep breath.
1585 01:35:31 我们在上帝面前一起见证We've come together in the presence of God to witness
1586 01:35:35 并祝福阿曼达和朱莉and bless the joining together
1587 01:35:38 迈向神圣的婚姻殿堂of Amanda and Julie in holy matrimony.
1588 01:35:41 我遭受了创伤I suffered trauma,
1589 01:35:44 这绝对导致了极端形式的自我憎恨and it definitely resulted in extreme forms of self-hatred,
1590 01:35:49 但我活下来了but I survived.
1591 01:35:51 我很高兴 我找到了我深爱的人I'm really happy, and I found somebody that I love so much.
1592 01:35:55 我们很幸福 但并不是所有人都幸福And we're doing well, but not everybody is.
1593 01:36:00 前同性恋领导人在做 他们认为对我们所有人最好的事情Ex-gay leaders are doing what they believe is the best thing for all of us.
1594 01:36:06 问题是 他们认为完整和健康意味着The problem is that they think whole and healthy means
1595 01:36:10 努力让我们适应成为不可能成为的人trying to fit ourselves into something we can't be.
1596 01:36:14 我希望他们能听我们的I wish that they would listen to us
1597 01:36:16 相信我们所说的and believe us when we say
1598 01:36:19 我们现在不参与那些事情了that we really are so much healthier and happier
1599 01:36:23 真的更健康、更快乐了now that we're no longer a part of that.
1600 01:36:25 上帝创造你们是为了让你们彼此交融God created you for communion with one another.
1601 01:36:30 而这种交融的最高表达 将是你们的婚姻And the highest expression of this communion will be your marriage.
1602 01:36:35 你可以亲吻新娘了You may kiss your bride.
1603 01:36:47 非常感谢你分享你的故事 谢谢你 朱莉Thank you so much for sharing your story. Thanks, Julie.
1604 01:37:03 只要恐同症在这个世界上还存在As long as homophobia exists in this world,
1605 01:37:06 像出埃及这样的团体就会出现some version of Exodus will emerge.
1606 01:37:11 因为它不是一种组织Because it's not the organization,
1607 01:37:13 甚至不是他们使用的方法and it's not even the methods that they use.
1608 01:37:15 这是一种潜在的信念It's the underlying belief
1609 01:37:18 即同性恋在本质上that there is something intrinsically disordered
1610 01:37:20 有一些紊乱的东西是值得改变的and change-worthy about being gay.
1611 01:37:24 只要恐同继续存在As long as that continues to exist,
1612 01:37:27 就会出现某种形式的团体there will be some form of this.
1613 01:37:39 仅在美国，就有大约七十万人 接受过某种形式的转化疗法
1614 01:37:46 一项全国调查发现，经历过 转化疗法的青少年性少数群体，企图自杀的可能性是其他人的两倍多
1615 01:38:02 里奇切莱特和安妮保克 拒绝了我们的采访请求
1616 01:38:10 谨以此片献给 在转化疗法中幸存下来的人特别是那些不幸逝去的人
1617 01:38:21 如果你或你认识的人 有自杀或自残的念头请登录www.wannatalkaboutit.com 寻求救助
1618 01:38:32 本字幕由Tao5133制作