酷刑报告 The Report(CN/EN)Subtitles

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1 00:01:01 你进行这项调查有多久了 丹How long you been working on this project, Dan?
2 00:01:04 五年Five years.
3 00:01:07 五年Five.
4 00:01:10 每天从早到晚 外加周末吗Every day? Nights, weekends?
5 00:01:14 非常辛苦It's been very consuming.
6 00:01:18 帕涅塔审查报告最高机密 敏感信息隔离
7 00:01:20 丹 你有伴侣吗 或者家人Do you have a relationship, Dan? Family?
8 00:01:23 我只是想更好地了解你Just trying to get a better sense of who you are.
9 00:01:27 刚开始的时候 我在和别人约会 但是When it started, I was seeing someone, but, you know,
10 00:01:30 考虑到工作性质和时间with the nature of the work and the hours...
11 00:01:33 我不是一个很好的伴侣I wasn't a very good partner.
12 00:01:39 五年 一切成果都可能化为乌有Five years, and it could all go away.
13 00:01:43 因为这些指控而烟消云散Just vanish in the face of these allegations.
14 00:01:46 我完全能想象I can certainly imagine
15 00:01:48 像你这样雄心勃勃的年轻人花费数年的时间an ambitious young man like yourself spends years
16 00:01:51 埋头于调查一些可怕的场面with his head buried in some terrible spectacle,
17 00:01:54 对调查过程感到沮丧gets frustrated with the process,
18 00:01:56 遇到一个能更快传出真相的机会sees an opportunity to get the truth out faster,
19 00:01:59 也许会选择越界maybe crosses a line.
20 00:02:01 我猜这是你参与过的I'm assuming this is the most important thing
21 00:02:02 -最重要的事情 -我没做- you've ever been a part of. - I didn't do it.
22 00:02:03 又或是一位同样雄心勃勃的参议员Or I can see an equally ambitious senator
23 00:02:05 鼓励你去做点什么encouraging you to do something.
24 00:02:07 现在是告诉我的好机会Now would be a good time to tell me.
25 00:02:08 不是那样的 我的所作所为是个人行为That did not happen. What I did, I did on my own.
26 00:02:12 我独自行动I acted alone.
27 00:02:13 你睡过觉吗 兄弟You ever sleep, bro?
28 00:02:15 我以前会睡 后来妨碍工作了I used to. Got in the way of work.
29 00:02:18 包里有任何物品包含Anything in that bag contain the real names
30 00:02:20 中情局职员 线人或合作伙伴的真名of CIA officers, assets or partners,
31 00:02:22 或任何会违反or any information that would be in violation
32 00:02:24 中央情报局和美国参议院of the agreement between the Central Intelligence Agency
33 00:02:27 之间协议的信息吗and the United States Senate?
34 00:02:30 -晚安 杰伊 -你也是 丹- Have a good night, Jay. - You, too, Dan.
35 00:02:34 你确实偷了文件So, you did steal the document?
36 00:02:35 我没偷 我转移了它I did not steal it. I relocated it.
37 00:02:37 每个人都各执一词Everyone has their own words.
38 00:02:38 语言是用来选择立场的The language is built to choose sides.
39 00:02:40 你为什么要转移它Now, why did you relocate it?
40 00:02:44 他们会把你送进监狱的 丹They could send you to jail, Dan.
41 00:02:51 酷刑报告
42 00:02:57 我想我应该从头讲起I think I should start at the beginning.
43 00:03:26 参议员专座
44 00:03:40 -你是丹·琼斯吗 -是- You Dan Jones? - Yeah.
45 00:03:42 丹尼斯·麦克唐纳Denis McDonough.
46 00:03:43 非常感谢您能见我Thank you so much for meeting me.
47 00:03:43 进来吧 别客气Come on in. Yeah. Absolutely.
48 00:03:46 感谢你能来So, thanks for coming in.
49 00:03:48 讲讲你的故事吧Tell me your story.
50 00:03:49 我读研究生的第二天是9月11日My second day of grad school was September 11th.
51 00:03:51 我正要去听课 突然间一切都停止了I was headed to a lecture, and everything just... stopped.
52 00:03:55 第二天 我把课都换成了国家安全方向的The next day, I changed all my classes to national security.
53 00:03:58 好样的Good man.
54 00:04:00 你的长期规划呢So, what's the long-term plan?
55 00:04:02 十年后你觉得自己能做成什么样Where do you see yourself in ten years?
56 00:04:04 要竞选公职吗Are you running for office?
57 00:04:04 不 我对政治没什么兴趣No. No politics for me.
58 00:04:06 我想我在幕后会更有效I think I'd be more effective behind the scenes,
59 00:04:08 在真的可以有所作为的地方效力somewhere I can really make a difference.
60 00:04:10 去哈佛之前呢So, what about before Harvard?
61 00:04:12 你是怎么打发日子的What'd you fill up your days with then?
62 00:04:13 在巴尔的摩"为美国而教"项目工作了三年Teach For America for three years in Baltimore.
63 00:04:16 教七年级学生Seventh-graders.
64 00:04:17 我了解到你大学毕业后在明尼苏达州圣保罗I read that you taught high school Spanish
65 00:04:19 教高中西班牙语in Saint Paul, Minnesota, after college?
66 00:04:21 林登·约翰逊的第一份工作是在And LBJ's first job was teaching
67 00:04:22 德克萨斯南部的墨西哥学校教书at the Mexican school in South Texas.
68 00:04:24 知道如何和孩子相处Knowing how to deal with children
69 00:04:26 是在国会工作时非常有用的技能is a highly useful skill when working on the Hill.
70 00:04:29 但从我作为参议院职员的角度来看But from my perspective as Senate staff,
71 00:04:32 我建议你等到我们击败共和党后再加入I would wait until things turn around up here.
72 00:04:36 我想达施勒参议员也会这么说I think Senator Daschle would say the same thing.
73 00:04:38 去学习一些现实经验 比如从事反恐领域Go get some real-world experience in counterterrorism,
74 00:04:42 从事外交政策in... foreign policy.
75 00:04:44 试试中情局 试试联调局Try the CIA. Try FBI.
76 00:04:47 让他们教你在教室里学不到的东西Have them teach you what they don't teach you in a classroom.
77 00:04:49 然后你可以回到这里 然后Then you can come back here, and...
78 00:04:51 帮我们收拾布什和切尼留下的烂摊子help us fix all the things that Bush and Cheney are breaking.
79 00:04:54 我是麦克唐纳McDonough.
80 00:04:56 是的 参议员 等一下Yes, Senator, uh, one second.
81 00:04:58 是上司 拿着The boss. Here.
82 00:05:01 保持联系 好吗Keep in touch, huh?
83 00:05:03 -非常感谢你抽出时间 -不客气- Thank you very much for your time. - Absolutely.
84 00:05:04 我现在没有这个信息I do not have that information right now,
85 00:05:06 但我一定能在十五分钟内给你弄到but I can certainly get that for you in the next 15.
86 00:05:10 好Yeah.
87 00:05:17 关于德国的炸弹袭击阴谋In regards to the bomb plots in Germany,
88 00:05:18 三个人在梅德巴赫被捕three men were arrested in Medebach
89 00:05:20 搜获680千克过氧化氢with 1,500 pounds of hydrogen peroxide
90 00:05:22 以及26个军用级雷管and 26 military-grade detonators.
91 00:05:25 中情局怀疑伊斯兰圣战联盟...The CIA suspects the Islamic Jihad Union...
92 00:05:27 打扰一下Excuse me.
93 00:05:28 能跟我来一下吗 丹Can I borrow you for a minute, Dan?
94 00:05:29 参议员想见你Senator would like to see you.
95 00:05:31 没问题Yeah, of course.
96 00:05:34 参议员黛安·范斯坦 加州
97 00:05:36 -早上好 丹 -早上好 参议员- Morning, Dan. - Morning, Senator.
98 00:05:39 今天《纽约时报》的报道你看了吗Have you seen the story today in The New York Times?
99 00:05:41 没有 参议员 我还没看No, Senator, I have not.
100 00:05:42 显然 中情局销毁了Evidently, the CIA destroyed tapes
101 00:05:44 对基地组织在押人员的审讯录像带of interrogations of Al Qaeda detainees.
102 00:05:48 情报委员会知道有录像带吗Did the Intel Committee know there were tapes?
103 00:05:51 不 这是我第一次听说No. This is the first I've heard of it.
104 00:05:54 我想知道录像带上记录了什么So, I want to find out what was on the tapes
105 00:05:57 以及它们被销毁的原因and why they were destroyed.
106 00:05:58 我们要你来领导调查 丹We want you to lead the investigation, Dan.
107 00:06:03 但是如果录像带被销毁了 我们怎么...But if the tapes were destroyed, how do we...
108 00:06:05 他们说他们有书面记录They're saying they have written records.
109 00:06:07 成千上万页 我们看看到底有没有Thousands of pages. Let's see about that.
110 00:06:11 我要你弄清楚他们到底有什么I want you to find out exactly what they have
111 00:06:13 每个字都要读and read every word of it.
112 00:06:21 这份关于中情局销毁录像带的报告This report on the destruction of tapes by the CIA
113 00:06:24 -调查耗时两年 -谢谢- has been two years in the making. - Thank you.
114 00:06:27 调查结果非常令人担忧The findings are very troubling,
115 00:06:29 参议院情报特别委员会敏感信息隔离设施
116 00:06:30 但它仍然属于机密but it will remain classified.
117 00:06:32 基于这些发现 一次更大规模的Based on these revelations, a larger study into
118 00:06:36 针对整个中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查the entire CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
119 00:06:40 显然十分必要is clearly in order.
120 00:06:43 赞成者 请说"赞成"All in favor, say "yay."
121 00:06:46 -怀特豪斯先生 -赞成- Mr. Whitehouse? - Yay.
122 00:06:48 -博格先生 -赞成- Mr. Berg? - Yay.
123 00:06:51 -洛克菲勒先生 -赞成- Mr. Rockefeller? - Yay.
124 00:06:54 钱布利斯先生Mr. Chambliss?
125 00:06:56 -反对 -里施先生- Nay. - Mr. Risch?
126 00:06:58 我认为这是浪费时间I think this is a waste of time.
127 00:07:00 我知道你投了反对票 萨克斯比Now, I know you voted against this, Saxby...
128 00:07:02 但你已经调查过录像带的事了But you already had your tapes investigation.
129 00:07:05 是的 但我们都赞成进一步调查 十四票对一票Yes, but the rest of us voted to go further, 14 to one.
130 00:07:09 提供监督是我们的职责It's our job to provide oversight.
131 00:07:11 在竞选期间All during the campaign,
132 00:07:13 你们的候选人奥巴马声称you got candidate Obama saying
133 00:07:15 他想成为第一位后党派总统how he wanted to be the first post-partisan president.
134 00:07:19 萨克斯比 你了解我Saxby, you know me.
135 00:07:20 我希望人们将这份报告视作It's my intention that this report be seen
136 00:07:22 整个情报委员会的共同努力as coming from the entire Intelligence Committee,
137 00:07:24 不仅仅是来自民主党not just the Democrats.
138 00:07:26 那谁来领导调查So, who takes the lead?
139 00:07:28 我考虑的人选是丹·琼斯Well, I was thinking Dan Jones.
140 00:07:31 他在联调局从事了四年反恐工作He spent four years doing counterterrorism at the FBI.
141 00:07:31 国家情报总监办公室
142 00:07:34 他已经拿到了安全许可He's already got the security clearances.
143 00:07:36 规则和录像带调查一样The rules are the same as the tapes investigation.
144 00:07:40 不含政治 不含偏见No politics, no bias,
145 00:07:42 参议员对观点或理论and the senator isn't interested
146 00:07:43 不感兴趣 只要事实in opinions or theories, just facts.
147 00:07:45 根据你已经发现的情况Based on what you found out already,
148 00:07:47 接着查下去可能很可怕this could go to a pretty dark place.
149 00:07:50 你得把你的个人感情排除在外You need to keep your personal feelings out of it.
150 00:07:52 这是共和党人最看重的一点That's the first thing Republicans are gonna look for.
151 00:07:55 不能跟媒体或你女友No talking to the press or your girlfriend
152 00:07:57 或任何家庭成员谈论这起调查or any family members.
153 00:07:59 委员会之外的人都不行Nobody outside of the committee.
154 00:08:01 你会得到一个六人的团队You're gonna get a team of six...
155 00:08:03 三个共和党人 三个民主党人three Republicans, three Democrats...
156 00:08:04 但报告里不能有任何共和党的陈词but there can't be any Republican sentences
157 00:08:07 或者是民主党的段落or Democratic paragraphs.
158 00:08:09 我们有多长时间And how long do we have?
159 00:08:10 我们希望你能在一年左右的时间内完成报告We're hoping you can wrap it up in a year or so.
160 00:08:14 你得向参议员汇报你的最新进展You're gonna have to keep the senators updated on your work.
161 00:08:17 没人想要突发信息Nobody wants any surprises.
162 00:08:20 弗吉尼亚州有一个秘密的中情局办公室There's a covert CIA off-site in Virginia.
163 00:08:22 你明天开始工作You start tomorrow.
164 00:08:23 琼斯 对吧 我是肖恩Jones, right? Sean.
165 00:08:26 -你好 我是丹 -我是中情局的肖恩·墨菲- Hi. Dan. - Sean Murphy from the Agency.
166 00:08:29 -我们进去吧 -好的- Let's go inside. - Okay.
167 00:08:36 身份证明 先生们Identification, gentlemen.
168 00:08:38 我们指定的房间是敏感信息隔离设施The room we've designated is a SCIF.
169 00:08:41 没有电话信号 不能拍照 你知道的No phone reception, no photos... you know the drill...
170 00:08:43 铅墙lead walls.
171 00:08:46 根据协议And, per the agreement,
172 00:08:47 这个房间禁止the room is off-limits to everyone
173 00:08:49 -委员会以外的人进入 -当然- except committee personnel. - Absolutely.
174 00:08:51 没有你的允许谁都不能进去No one inside without your permission.
175 00:09:03 -电脑呢 -就在这里- And the computers? - Right here.
176 00:09:05 你自己的专用服务器 气隙工作站Your own dedicated server, air-gapped workstations.
177 00:09:07 我们根据进展随时更新数据库We'll be updating the database as we go.
178 00:09:09 我们从局里收集文件时The files will be loaded on here as we collect them
179 00:09:11 -会把它们放在这里 -很好- from across the Agency. - Great.
180 00:09:13 我们需要尽快拿到所有相关文件We'll want all relevant documents as soon as possible.
181 00:09:15 -我们得先进行审查 -审查- Well, we got to vet it first. - Vet?
182 00:09:16 有很多文件需要审查...There's a lot to...
183 00:09:18 帕涅塔局长同意提供Director Panetta agreed to give us
184 00:09:19 与项目有关的所有资料everything pertaining to the program.
185 00:09:21 由谁进行审查Wh-Who would be, who would be vetting it?
186 00:09:23 这是个大机构It's a big agency.
187 00:09:25 我们要确保你不会看到We got to make sure you don't get anything
188 00:09:26 你不该看的东西you're not supposed to.
189 00:09:31 仅限美国参议院情报委员会职员进入
190 00:09:55 别拘束Make yourself at home.
191 00:10:05 没有打印机吗There's... no printer?
192 00:10:08 没有纸No paper.
193 00:10:10 没有中情局的批准No documents are allowed to leave the room
194 00:10:12 文件不准离开房间without CIA approval.
195 00:10:14 纸在中情局可是个麻烦事Paper has a way of getting people in trouble at our place.
196 00:10:20 我们迟早会需要打印机I think at some point we're gonna need a printer.
197 00:10:23 还有纸And paper.
198 00:10:24 在参议院At our place...
199 00:10:27 纸是我们记录法律的途径paper's how we keep track of laws.
200 00:10:33 好吧Okay.
201 00:11:06 最高机密中情局简报备忘录
202 00:11:07 基地组织
203 00:11:08 两名劫机嫌疑犯
204 00:11:09 马来西亚会议
205 00:11:09 世贸中心
206 00:11:11 否认知情情况紧急
207 00:11:11 ...将此事称为显而易见的恐怖袭击...calling this an obvious terrorist attack
208 00:11:12 2001年9月11日
209 00:11:13 2001年9月11日反恐中心
210 00:11:15 基于非常初步的信息based on very preliminary information,
211 00:11:18 情报职员目前正在获取的信息...the information that intelligence officials are getting...
212 00:11:21 坏消息You're not gonna like this.
213 00:11:22 可能是一起劫机事件 当然...a possible hijacked plane, and of course
214 00:11:24 关于飞机的那段非常可怕的视频...the-the very horrifying video of the plane...
215 00:11:28 我们确认了一些名字We confirmed some of the names.
216 00:11:30 劫机者的名字吗The hijackers?
217 00:11:31 马来西亚会议中两名参会者的名字Two of the guys from the Malaysia meetings.
218 00:11:33 那两个圣地亚哥人 他们劫持了77号航班The San Diego guys. They took down Flight 77.
219 00:11:36 五角大楼Pentagon.
220 00:11:37 让两架飞机撞击大楼的配合......the coordination that took place to have two planes hit the towers...
221 00:11:41 大家请注意Attention, everyone, please.
222 00:11:42 我们有理由相信 反恐中心We have reason to believe the Counterterrorism Center
223 00:11:45 是潜在的袭击目标is a potential target.
224 00:11:47 请所有人员立即撤离We're asking all personnel to evacuate, immediately.
225 00:11:50 吉姆·米克拉泽夫斯基在五角大楼为您报道Jim Miklaszewski there from the Pentagon.
226 00:11:52 当然 总统有权Of course, the president has the authority
227 00:11:53 出动军队to scramble military, uh, forces,
228 00:11:56 并且很显然 目前的情况and, uh, this is a case, obviously,
229 00:11:58 如果证实in which, uh, retaliation,
230 00:11:59 确实是恐怖袭击if indeed it proves to be a terrorist incident,
231 00:12:02 将会进行军事报复will be contemplated.
232 00:12:04 不过 我们也得做些We also have to work, though,
233 00:12:05 中情局总部2001年9月16日
234 00:12:06 见不得光的工作 可以这么说sort of, the-the dark side, if you will.
235 00:12:08 我们得花些时间在暗处We've got to spend time in the shadows
236 00:12:09 进行情报工作in-in the intelligence world.
237 00:12:12 有很多必做之事A lot of what needs to be done here
238 00:12:14 将被悄无声息地完成 不经过任何讨论will have to be done quietly, without any discussion...
239 00:12:17 我他妈警告过他们了Fucking warned them.
240 00:12:18 8月6日对总统进行的简报August 6th presidential briefing:
241 00:12:20 "本·拉登决定袭击美国""Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S."
242 00:12:22 "情况紧急""Flashing red lights."
243 00:12:24 在那之前呢 7月时我们怎么说的And before that, in July, what did we say?
244 00:12:27 "接下来的数周乃至数月内"There will be significant terrorist attacks
245 00:12:29 将有针对美国的重大恐怖袭击"against the United States in the weeks and months to come."
246 00:12:34 不是你的错It's not your fault.
247 00:12:35 那是种恶毒不堪 危险肮脏的行当It is a mean, nasty, dangerous, uh, dirty business out there,
248 00:12:39 而我们得在其中开展行动and we have to operate in that arena.
249 00:12:41 但我们需要确定 我们没有But we need to make certain that we have not
250 00:12:43 束缚我们的情报机构tied the hands, if you will, of our intelligence community.
251 00:12:47 我和反恐中心主任布莱克Counterterrorism Director Black and I saw President Bush
252 00:12:49 这周末在戴维营见了布什总统at Camp David this weekend.
253 00:12:52 总统向我保证 中情局的领导层And the president gave me his word that there will be
254 00:12:53 不会因周二的袭击而发生变动no changes in CIA leadership as a result of Tuesday's attacks.
255 00:12:57 我们现在要向前看We will look forward now,
256 00:12:59 不能浪费时间去马后炮或追责not waste time second-guessing or looking for blame.
257 00:13:03 接下来 我们要成为Going forward, we will be the tip of the spear
258 00:13:05 与基地组织之战的尖兵in the battle against Al Qaeda.
259 00:13:07 我跟总统保证了 两周时间As I said to the president, two weeks,
260 00:13:10 我们要在基地组织眼皮底下安排探子we'll have flies walking across Al Qaeda eyeballs.
261 00:13:12 我邀请了首席法律顾问里佐来向我们说明I've asked Chief Counsel Rizzo here to walk us through
262 00:13:14 在法律角度上 我们目前的情况where we are from a legal standpoint.
263 00:13:17 总统下发了备忘通知The president has issued a memorandum of notification
264 00:13:21 授权中情局在战场上逮捕及拘留giving CIA the power to capture and detain suspected terrorists
265 00:13:26 嫌疑恐怖分子on the battlefield.
266 00:13:27 把他们拘留在哪Detain them where?
267 00:13:29 我们要把他们带回美国吗Are we bringing them to the U.S.?
268 00:13:32 反恐中心可不搞We're really not in the prison business
269 00:13:34 -监狱那一套 -听我说- over in Counterterrorism. - Look,
270 00:13:36 反恐中心上周的预算是多少the budget for Counterterrorism last week was what?
271 00:13:39 六个亿$600 million?
272 00:13:41 这周的预算不设上限The budget this week is whatever you need it to be.
273 00:13:45 只要能完成任务 我们不择手段And we are in whatever business it takes to get the job done.
274 00:13:49 起初 中情局的法务Initially, CIA legal
275 00:13:51 声明任何用于关押的设施stated that any facility used to hold detainees
276 00:13:54 都需达到美国监狱局的要求had to meet the requirements of the U.S. Bureau of Prisons,
277 00:13:56 但后来 副局长帕维特认为but then Deputy Director Pavitt
278 00:13:58 那样局限太大thought that was gonna be too limiting.
279 00:13:59 那么 是谁想出了黑狱的主意So, who came up with the black sites?
280 00:14:01 还不太清楚 我的猜想是Not totally clear. My guess
281 00:14:03 要么是反恐中心的高级职员is either a senior officer at Counterterr... CTC,
282 00:14:06 要么是亚历克站的本·拉登小组or Alec Station bin Laden unit
283 00:14:08 认定黑狱是最好的选择decided black sites were the best option.
284 00:14:09 中情局有没有告知国务院Well, did the CIA tell the State Department
285 00:14:12 他们在跟人协商要在境外拘留人员they were making deals to hold people on foreign soil?
286 00:14:16 国务卿鲍威尔在此事中扮演了什么角色Where was Secretary of State Powell in all this?
287 00:14:19 我找到了一份备忘录Well, I found a memo.
288 00:14:21 中情局的法律总顾问The CIA's general counsel...
289 00:14:24 声称决定是said the decision was made
290 00:14:26 不将该项目告知鲍威尔not to tell Powell about the program,
291 00:14:29 因为because...
292 00:14:31 "如果他知道了情况"He would blow his stack
293 00:14:33 一定会大发雷霆"if he were to be briefed on what was going on."
294 00:14:37 谁的决定Well, who decided that?
295 00:14:39 某个白宫内部的人Someone inside the White House.
296 00:14:43 那审讯呢What about interrogations?
297 00:14:46 布什总统的备忘录President Bush's memoranda
298 00:14:47 只授权了逮捕和拘留just authorized capturing and detaining.
299 00:14:50 丝毫没有提到审讯的事It didn't say anything about interrogations.
300 00:14:51 那么是谁给他们许可去做那些事的And who gave them permission to play that role?
301 00:14:55 没人 看起来是从反恐中心的法务开始的Nobody. It looks like it started with legal at CTC.
302 00:15:01 要我把这事汇报给麦凯恩参议员吗Do you want me to brief Senator McCain on this?
303 00:15:03 我知道他感兴趣I know he's interested.
304 00:15:04 共和党退出了这次调查 丹The Republicans just pulled out of the study, Dan.
305 00:15:13 早上好Good morning.
306 00:15:14 大伙人呢Where is everybody?
307 00:15:19 司法部长霍尔德启动了对中情局的Attorney General Holder opened a criminal investigation
308 00:15:21 犯罪调查into the CIA.
309 00:15:22 因此 中情局不允许他们的任何人As a result, the Agency won't allow any of their people
310 00:15:25 接受我们的访谈to be interviewed for our report.
311 00:15:27 共和党不认为调查还能继续The Republicans don't see how we can move forward,
312 00:15:29 所以他们退出了so they're out.
313 00:15:32 那调查要中止吗So, does this mean we stop?
314 00:15:33 毕竟 委员会投过票赞成调查的I mean, the committee voted to investigate.
315 00:15:35 参议员让我们继续The senator says we keep going.
316 00:15:36 但我们无法询问任何But we can't actually talk to anyone
317 00:15:38 -参与过这一项目的人 -对- who was involved in the program. - Right.
318 00:15:39 据中情局法务所说 中情局的人只对司法部的人开口According to CIA legal, CIA personnel is only speaking to DOJ.
319 00:15:43 那司法部会分享他们的发现吗And is DOJ gonna share their findings?
320 00:15:45 我是说 我们能跟他们合作吗I mean, can we work with them?
321 00:15:46 我已经联系了特别检察官I've reached out to the special prosecutor.
322 00:15:48 正在等他的回复I'm waiting to hear back.
323 00:15:49 好 但如果参与过项目的人Okay, but if nobody who actually worked on the program
324 00:15:51 都不肯跟我们谈 我们要怎么调查is going to talk to us, how do we investigate?
325 00:15:53 我们有文件So, we have the files,
326 00:15:55 他们的电子邮件和电报 备忘录their e-mails and cables, their memos.
327 00:15:57 我们要用他们自己的沟通记录将事情展现出来We have to use their own communications to tell the story.
328 00:16:00 你知道这会有多难吗Do you have any idea how hard that's gonna be?
329 00:16:02 录像带的调查可花了两年 丹The tapes investigation took two years, Dan,
330 00:16:05 而这可远比录像带上的内容要复杂得多and this is about a lot more than what was on the tapes.
331 00:16:08 我们都不知道这到底算什么We don't even know what this is.
332 00:16:11 对 但我们知道这事的始作俑者Right, but we do know who it starts with.
333 00:16:14 我们一次找一位受押人员We go one detainee at a time.
334 00:16:26 阿布·祖贝达 2002年3月
335 00:16:31 最高机密
336 00:16:32 阿布·祖贝达
337 00:16:33 于费萨尔巴被捕
338 00:16:34 重伤
339 00:16:35 出发日期 2004年8月23日 周一返程日期 2004年8月28日 周六
340 00:16:35 联调局审讯祖贝达
341 00:16:37 特别探员阿里·苏凡
342 00:16:38 黑狱
343 00:16:38 阿布·祖贝达被交给绿色拘留点
344 00:16:39 绿色拘留点2002年3月
345 00:16:48 你会说英语吗You speak English?
346 00:16:51 我叫阿里·苏凡 我是联调局的My name is Ali Soufan. I'm with the FBI.
347 00:16:54 你被捕了You're under arrest.
348 00:16:55 -明白吗 -不 你们要带我去哪- You understand? - No. Where are you taking me?
349 00:17:05 你的伤口感染了Your wound is infected.
350 00:17:07 但我们会照顾好你的But we're going to take good care of you.
351 00:17:14 我要给你看样东西I want to show you something.
352 00:17:23 他在跟镜头外的什么人说话He's talking to someone off-screen.
353 00:17:27 他叫他穆赫塔尔He's calling him Mukhtar.
354 00:17:30 你知道是谁吗You know who that is?
355 00:17:43 穆赫塔尔Mukhtar.
356 00:17:45 脑子飞走的人
357 00:17:47 就像飞机一样
358 00:17:52 一个疯子A man who lost his mind?
359 00:18:00 哪个是他
360 00:18:02 不 不是他No, not him.
361 00:18:11 哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
362 00:18:19 我会让医生进来看看你
363 00:18:24 然后我会回来 我们继续聊
364 00:18:28 喝百事可乐吗
365 00:18:34 我能活下来吗
366 00:18:37 如果安拉愿意的话
367 00:18:41 阿布·祖贝达确认了哈立德就是Abu Zubaydah confirmed that KSM is the leader
368 00:18:43 基地组织在阿富汗境外所有行动的头领of all Al Qaeda operations outside of Afghanistan.
369 00:18:46 他训练了那些劫机者He trained the hijackers.
370 00:18:48 我们认为他就是主谋We're calling him the mastermind.
371 00:18:49 了不起Outstanding.
372 00:18:51 向本·拉登小组致敬Hats off to the bin Laden group.
373 00:18:54 不管是你们哪个手下查出了这些Whichever one of your people did this,
374 00:18:55 我都想亲自打电话祝贺I want to call them and congratulate them in person.
375 00:18:57 是谁Who was it?
376 00:18:59 不是我们的人Wasn't our guy.
377 00:19:01 什么 那是谁What? Who got it?
378 00:19:03 联调局在审讯祖贝达FBI is working Zubaydah.
379 00:19:06 是联调局的人查到的An FBI guy got this?
380 00:19:08 是的 阿里·苏凡Yes, Ali Soufan.
381 00:19:09 他们在科尔调查中用过他They used him in the Cole investigation.
382 00:19:11 他是他们反恐组的人 他会说阿拉伯语He's part of their counterterrorism group. He speaks Arabic.
383 00:19:13 我不在乎谁会说阿拉伯语I don't care who speaks Arabic.
384 00:19:16 这可不只是犯罪调查This is not just a criminal investigation.
385 00:19:19 我们这里是收集情报的We are gathering intelligence here.
386 00:19:21 这是我们的职责That is what we do.
387 00:19:22 联调局着眼于过去The FBI is looking at the past.
388 00:19:24 而我们要阻止未来的恐怖袭击We need to stop attacks in the future.
389 00:19:27 我要中情局的人跟那家伙在一起 明白吗I want CIA in the room with this guy, okay?
390 00:19:29 我要中情局的人跟祖贝达在一起I want CIA in the room with Zubaydah.
391 00:19:32 我们有谁能让他开口So, who do we have who can work on him?
392 00:19:33 中情局运作线人 他们都是会配合的人CIA runs sources, people who cooperate.
393 00:19:36 这些人可不一样That's not these guys.
394 00:19:37 我们没榨干受押人大脑的每一秒Every second we are not draining the detainee's brain,
395 00:19:39 都是赌运气we are rolling the dice.
396 00:19:40 我们得派自己的人去那里We need our people in the room.
397 00:19:42 我们现在得做提问的人We need to be the ones asking the questions now.
398 00:19:46 我听一个技术服务部的人说过I heard from someone over in Technical Services,
399 00:19:48 一个叫米里亚姆的女人a woman named Miriam,
400 00:19:50 关于几个空军心理学家about a couple of Air Force psychologists
401 00:19:53 他们加入后给审讯带来了全新的方法who came in and pitched a whole new approach to interrogations.
402 00:19:56 吉姆·米切尔和布鲁斯·杰森Jim Mitchell and Bruce Jessen.
403 00:19:59 米里亚姆说米切尔有秘诀Miriam says Mitchell has the special sauce.
404 00:20:03 祖贝达没完全交待Zubaydah didn't tell us everything,
405 00:20:06 因为我们在中途戛然而止了because we stopped short of where we needed to go.
406 00:20:10 SERE代表生存 躲避 反抗和逃跑SERE stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape.
407 00:20:16 这是一个帮助美国特种部队的项目It's a program to help prepare U.S. Special Forces
408 00:20:20 帮助他们应对一旦被捕可能遭遇的一切for whatever they might encounter if captured.
409 00:20:22 我观察SERE技术Now, I have over 14,000 hours
410 00:20:26 超过一万四千小时observing SERE interrogation techniques.
411 00:20:29 布鲁斯观察的时间更久Bruce here has more than that...
412 00:20:30 观察 而不是...Observing, as opposed to...?
413 00:20:33 我也上过指导如何审讯的课程I took a course in conducting interrogations as well.
414 00:20:36 我曾和志愿者进行过模拟审讯I worked with volunteers in actual simulations.
415 00:20:39 我们认为可以对SERE技术We feel we can reverse engineer
416 00:20:42 进行反向工程 从而产生习得性无助these SERE techniques to induce learned helplessness.
417 00:20:46 3D方法虚弱 依赖 恐惧
418 00:20:46 你能解释一下Can you explain what that means,
419 00:20:48 "反向工程"指什么吗"reverse engineer"?
420 00:20:49 我们不用这些技术保护我们的人Instead of using these techniques to protect our people,
421 00:20:54 而是用它使受押人服从we use them to achieve compliance in the detainees.
422 00:20:58 我们的项目包括对受押人Our plan involves, uh, using individual assessments
423 00:21:01 进行个体评估 搭建一项催生of detainees to create a program designed to induce
424 00:21:06 虚弱 依赖和恐惧的项目debility, dependency and dread.
425 00:21:10 -我们称之为3D -3D- We call these the three "D"s. - Three "D"s.
426 00:21:13 这种方法有科学依据And there's science to back this up?
427 00:21:15 是的 是的 先生Oh, yes. Yes, sir.
428 00:21:16 打断一下 米切尔博士Excuse me, Dr. Mitchell.
429 00:21:18 你能详细解释一下你想用的具体手法吗Can you elaborate on, uh, the techniques you'll be employing?
430 00:21:21 当然可以Absolutely.
431 00:21:24 立正抓领双手抓住受押人的领口 将其拉近
432 00:21:25 立正抓领The, uh, the attention grasp.
433 00:21:28 撞墙以"项圈" 如卷起的头巾 毛巾等
434 00:21:30 撞墙Walling.
435 00:21:32 控头技术把手掌放在受押人脸颊两边 不让头移动
436 00:21:32 控头技术Facial hold.
437 00:21:33 掌掴或冒犯性扇击掌掴受押人的脸
438 00:21:34 掌掴或者说冒犯性扇击The facial slap or insult slap.
439 00:21:38 盒子禁闭将受押人关在狭小空间两小时
440 00:21:38 盒子禁闭Cramped confinement.
441 00:21:43 面墙站立受押人距墙约1.2米双臂撑墙
442 00:21:41 面墙站立Wall standing.
443 00:21:44 压力姿势受押人坐在地上双腿前伸举手过头
444 00:21:44 压力姿势Stress positions.
445 00:21:47 剥夺睡眠迫使受押人清醒超过一百八十小时
446 00:21:47 剥夺睡眠Sleep deprivation.
447 00:21:49 水刑将受押人绑在木板或长凳上
448 00:21:49 水刑Waterboarding.
449 00:21:51 使用昆虫威胁受押人将其与毒虫关在一个狭小密闭空间
450 00:21:51 使用昆虫Use of insects.
451 00:21:53 模拟下葬将受押人关在与棺材类似的狭窄盒子里
452 00:21:54 以及模拟下葬And mock burials.
453 00:21:59 我个人认为Well, from my perspective,
454 00:22:01 这似乎可以改变目前的局面this seems like it could be a potential game changer,
455 00:22:03 但当然but, of course...
456 00:22:05 这由罗德里格斯主任决定it's up to Director Rodriguez.
457 00:22:07 如果我们真的要阻止下一次袭击I think if we're serious about stopping the next threat,
458 00:22:10 我们就得成熟点we need to put on our big boy pants
459 00:22:12 给当局他们所需要的and provide the authorities these guys need.
460 00:22:14 这些方法可能会These approaches might...
461 00:22:16 导致国防部的一些人的非议raise some eyebrows at Defense.
462 00:22:18 我们又不是国防部 我们是中情局Well, we're not at Defense. We're at the CIA.
463 00:22:21 另外 你刚说过Besides, you just said,
464 00:22:22 我们一直都在自己人身上用这套SERE的东西we use this SERE stuff on our guys all the time.
465 00:22:25 我认为没问题I don't see a problem.
466 00:22:27 中情局决定聘用米切尔博士不久后Shortly after the CIA's decision
467 00:22:28 阿布·祖贝达被转移到一间to engage Dr. Mitchell, Abu Zubaydah was moved
468 00:22:31 二十四小时不熄灯的牢房to a cell that was lit 24 hours a day.
469 00:22:33 牢房里播放干扰他睡眠的高分贝噪声Loud noise was fed into his cell to disrupt his sleep.
470 00:22:37 那之前让他招供的人呢What about the guy who got him talking?
471 00:22:38 阿里·苏凡吗Ali Soufan?
472 00:22:40 等等 他是联调局的 不是中情局的Wait, he's FBI, not CIA.
473 00:22:42 所以我们可以问他 对吗So, we can ask him questions, right?
474 00:22:44 这不违反规定No rule against that.
475 00:22:47 我们可以试试We can try.
476 00:22:59 有效的审讯技术只有一种There's only one interrogation technique
477 00:23:02 建立友好关系that works: rapport building.
478 00:23:04 你与他们亲近 他们就会敞开心门You get close to these guys, and they open up.
479 00:23:07 但中情局不信这套But the CIA didn't believe that.
480 00:23:09 看看阿布·祖贝达Just look at Abu Zubaydah.
481 00:23:11 你让他开口了 你怎么做到的Well, you got him to talk. How'd you do that?
482 00:23:13 我去给他播放了一段他自己的录音I walked in one day and played him a tape of himself.
483 00:23:16 大部分都录的是他用手机通话Most of it was of a phone conversation.
484 00:23:19 我们监听了他的手机We had tapped his phones.
485 00:23:20 但他打完电话忘记挂了But he forgot to hang up at the end of the call,
486 00:23:23 所以我们录到了一些他房子里的背景音so we had all this background noise of his house.
487 00:23:26 然后我搭档带着Then my partner walked in
488 00:23:27 一整箱录音带进来了with a big box full of cassette tapes.
489 00:23:30 我们告诉他说我们监听了他的安全屋We told him we had bugged his safe house;
490 00:23:32 已经监听了数月we had been listening for months;
491 00:23:34 我们什么都知道 所以撒谎没用的we knew everything, so lying was pointless.
492 00:23:37 他看着一整箱录音带...He looked at the box full of tapes and...
493 00:23:38 所有的录音带都是空带And all-all the tapes were blank.
494 00:23:40 当然Of course they were.
495 00:23:41 但他不知道But he didn't know that.
496 00:23:43 所以他开口了So, he talked.
497 00:23:46 那承包商出现之后呢What happened when the contractors showed up?
498 00:23:49 他是谁Who the fuck is this?
499 00:23:50 2002年4月
500 00:23:51 米切尔博士是空军的心理学家Dr. Mitchell is an Air Force psychologist,
501 00:23:53 他研究出了一套新的审讯方法and he's developed a new method of interrogation.
502 00:23:55 我们要新审讯方法干什么Why-why do we need a new method?
503 00:23:57 他没完全交待He's not telling you everything.
504 00:23:59 我们认为他知道的更多We think he knows more.
505 00:24:01 我们认为他是基地组织的We put him at number three
506 00:24:02 三号或四号头目or number four in Al Qaeda leadership.
507 00:24:04 他可能知道下一次袭击的情报He probably knows the next move.
508 00:24:05 你会说阿拉伯语吗 吉姆 盖瑞会吗Do you speak Arabic, Jim? Does Gary here?
509 00:24:08 我不需要会Don't need to.
510 00:24:11 我能问你件事吗Can I ask you something?
511 00:24:12 你审讯过哪怕一个极端分子吗Have you ever interrogated any sort of extremist before?
512 00:24:17 -了解基地组织吗 -不- Know much about Al Qaeda? - No.
513 00:24:19 你审讯过恐怖分子吗Have you ever interrogated any sort of terrorist before?
514 00:24:23 -没有 -罪犯呢- No. - Any sort of criminal?
515 00:24:26 没有No.
516 00:24:27 你审讯过任何人吗Have you ever interrogated anyone before?
517 00:24:30 这不重要It's not important.
518 00:24:32 他是个人 我是心理学家He's a human; I'm a psychologist.
519 00:24:36 他知道一个秘密He knows a secret,
520 00:24:37 我会让他把这秘密告诉盖瑞and I'm gonna get him to tell that secret to Gary.
521 00:24:43 你要对他做的事不是...What-what are you going to do to him that isn't...
522 00:24:44 我要做什么What am I gonna do?
523 00:24:47 吉姆要做什么What is Jim gonna do?
524 00:24:48 吉姆要做管用的事情Jim's gonna do what works.
525 00:24:54 我们走 废物Let's go, shitbird!
526 00:25:00 过来 混蛋Move it, asshole!
527 00:25:03 救命 救命Help! Please!
528 00:25:21 你不能随便给穆斯林男人剃须You can't just shave a Muslim man.
529 00:25:23 你知道那意味着什么吗Do you know what that means?
530 00:25:24 他会封闭自我的He's going to shut down.
531 00:25:26 必须一上来就羞辱他Got to humiliate him, right off the bat.
532 00:25:29 脱光他的衣服也是一个目的Same reason we took away his clothes.
533 00:25:31 为什么要放这么响的音乐Why the loud music?
534 00:25:32 剥夺睡眠Sleep deprivation.
535 00:25:34 他开口我们就关掉音乐We stop the music when he starts talking.
536 00:25:37 到时候他就可以睡觉了Then he can sleep.
537 00:25:39 人疲劳了就会说实话吗Tired people tell the truth?
538 00:25:40 习得性无助Learned helplessness.
539 00:25:43 你熟悉马丁·塞利格曼博士吗You're familiar with Dr. Martin Seligman?
540 00:25:46 塞利格曼用狗做了个实验Seligman did an experiment with dogs.
541 00:25:48 他把狗关进笼子He put them in a cage
542 00:25:50 笼子中间有个障碍with a barrier running down the middle.
543 00:25:53 笼子一边通电 另一边不通电And one side of the cage was electrified and the other wasn't.
544 00:25:56 起初 他电击狗以后At first, when he shocked the dogs,
545 00:25:58 狗会跳到障碍另一边they'd jump over the barrier to get away.
546 00:26:00 然后他就在两边都通电And then he electrified both sides.
547 00:26:04 无路可逃There was no escape.
548 00:26:07 狗不再相信自己能改变什么No belief they could change anything.
549 00:26:10 他再打开笼门He'd open the door to the cage,
550 00:26:12 狗甚至都不出去了they wouldn't even leave.
551 00:26:14 这就是习得性无助It's learned helplessness.
552 00:26:15 我们就准备把这个注入这人That's what we're gonna instill in this man.
553 00:26:17 你会看到的You'll see.
554 00:26:25 棺材 你要杀了他吗A coffin? You're gonna kill him?
555 00:26:27 叫它禁闭盒吧Let's call it a confinement box.
556 00:26:30 我做了这个 还有个小一点的I got this one, and I got a smaller one.
557 00:26:33 你要把他关进去吗And you're gonna put him in there?
558 00:26:35 加上这个 根据我的评估 他讨厌这个With these, which, based on my evaluation, he hates.
559 00:26:41 你疯了Are you out of your mind?
560 00:26:43 我们不做这种事情We don't do this.
561 00:26:45 你知道这是犯法的You know this is against the law.
562 00:26:46 最上面的人签字同意了The most senior people have signed off on it.
563 00:26:50 我们是要送他上法庭的We're putting him on trial.
564 00:26:51 这要怎么起诉他How are we gonna build a case against him?
565 00:26:54 谁说他要上法庭Who says he's getting a trial?
566 00:26:58 我当场就像逮捕他I wanted to arrest him right there on the spot.
567 00:27:01 -我跟局里说了这个 -他们怎么说- I told the Bureau that. - What'd they say?
568 00:27:04 他们通报了穆勒局长They briefed Director Mueller,
569 00:27:06 然后让我离开那里 所以我就离开了and told me to get the hell out of there, so I did.
570 00:27:09 -那是什么时候 -五月底 五月中或是- When was that? - Late May, mid-May or...
571 00:27:12 因为我找到了记录'Cause I'm finding records that say that
572 00:27:14 显示米切尔六月初就离开了Mitchell left a little while later, early June,
573 00:27:16 休闲娱乐 去总部开会for R&R and some meetings at headquarters.
574 00:27:20 但我们有一个高价值受押人But we had one high-value detainee in custody,
575 00:27:23 阿布·祖贝达Abu Zubaydah.
576 00:27:24 米切尔离开后 中情局把他单独关起来And after Mitchell left, the CIA put him in isolation,
577 00:27:27 四十七天都没问他一个问题and didn't ask him a single question for 47 days.
578 00:27:31 你跟我开玩笑吗Are you fucking kidding me?
579 00:27:34 那个夏天 整个国家都处于红色警戒The whole country was on red alert that summer.
580 00:27:35 他们要是真那么担心下一次袭击If they were so concerned about the next attack,
581 00:27:38 他们为什么不审讯他了why'd they stop asking questions?
582 00:27:39 对 这说不通Right, it doesn't make any sense.
583 00:27:41 心理学家出现后Once the psychologist showed up,
584 00:27:42 基本上一切都停摆了almost nothing did anymore.
585 00:27:51 中情局说祖贝达参与了The CIA said Zubaydah was involved
586 00:27:53 基地组织发动的in every major terrorist operation
587 00:27:55 所有重大恐怖袭击carried out by Al Qaeda.
588 00:27:57 他们告诉总统They told the president
589 00:27:58 他是基地组织的三号或四号人物he was number three or four in the organization.
590 00:28:00 是的 我也是这么以为的Yes, that was my understanding as well.
591 00:28:02 祖贝达是主犯这一判断And the claim that Zubaydah was a major player
592 00:28:05 是他们告知司法部需要采取更强硬措施的was the main justification they gave to the Justice Department
593 00:28:07 主要理由for needing to go harder.
594 00:28:08 他们当时很确定他知道下一次袭击的情报They were certain he knew about the next attack.
595 00:28:11 但昨晚我发现了这个But last night I found this.
596 00:28:14 证明祖贝达不是基地组织的三号或四号人物Turns out Zubaydah wasn't three or four in the organization.
597 00:28:16 他都不在基地组织的领导层He wasn't part of Al Qaeda leadership at all.
598 00:28:19 他们只有一个线人这么指认他They only had one source calling him that,
599 00:28:21 那线人后来也承认自己撒谎and that source later admitted he was lying.
600 00:28:23 所以他们夸大了他的身份So, they exaggerated who he was
601 00:28:26 好让总统和司法部to the president and the Department of Justice
602 00:28:28 在法律上批准这些新技术in order to get legal approvals for these new techniques?
603 00:28:32 你是这个意思吗Is that what you're saying?
604 00:28:33 我认为有这个可能I think that's a possibility.
605 00:28:36 这个项目自他而始The program really starts with him.
606 00:28:39 绿色拘留点2002年8月4日
607 00:28:43 你们以前用过这个吗Have you guys used this thing before?
608 00:28:45 水刑吗The waterboard?
609 00:28:47 没有 这是海军的做法No, it's a Navy thing.
610 00:28:49 但我们看了个录像But we watched a video.
611 00:28:51 我们在彼此身上做了测试We tested it on each other,
612 00:28:52 为了体验一下具体感觉just to get a feel for the experience.
613 00:28:55 安全吗Is it safe?
614 00:28:58 安全Yes.
615 00:29:12 你在美国国内的同伙是谁Who are the operatives inside the U.S.?
616 00:29:14 我不知道I don't know!
617 00:29:20 下一次袭击是什么时候When is the next attack?
618 00:29:21 我不知道I don't know.
619 00:29:31 一 二 三 四 五One, two, three, four, five,
620 00:29:35 六 七 八 九 十 十一six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11,
621 00:29:40 十二 十三 十四12, 13, 14,
622 00:29:43 十五 十六 十七 十八15, 16, 17, 18,
623 00:29:46 十九 二十 二十一 二十二19, 20, 21, 22,
624 00:29:50 二十三 二十四 二十五 二十六23, 24, 25, 26.
625 00:30:02 下一次袭击是什么时候When is the next attack?
626 00:30:04 你在美国国内的同伙是谁Who are the operatives inside the U.S.?
627 00:30:12 包里有任何物品包含Anything in that bag contain
628 00:30:13 中情局职员 线人或合作伙伴的真名the real names of CIA officers, assets or partners,
629 00:30:16 或任何会违反中央情报局or any information that would violate the agreement between
630 00:30:18 与美国参议院之间协议的信息吗the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Senate?
631 00:30:21 -没有 -好的 晚安- All good. - All right, good night.
632 00:30:23 -晚安 杰伊 -平安到家- Have a good night, Jay. - Get home safe.
633 00:30:25 晚安Good night.
634 00:30:43 丹·琼斯吗Dan Jones?
635 00:30:48 我认识你吗Do I know you?
636 00:30:49 不 但我应该能帮到你No, but I think I can help you.
637 00:30:52 -帮我什么 -强化审讯技术项目- Help-help me with what? - The EIT program.
638 00:30:55 你在调查这个吧That's what you're looking into, isn't it?
639 00:30:59 你得保证不在任何地方提及我的名字I need to know I won't be named, anywhere.
640 00:31:03 我还在局里I'm still with the Agency.
641 00:31:05 光是来这里跟你说话 都是...My even being here with you, talking, is...
642 00:31:12 你参与了什么What was your involvement?
643 00:31:14 医疗服务部门 黑狱Office of Medical Services, black sites.
644 00:31:18 -你是医生吗 -医生助手- So, you're a doctor? - Physician's assistant.
645 00:31:21 美国医学协会The American Medical Association
646 00:31:22 不会允许医生参与won't allow doctors to be involved.
647 00:31:24 他们立誓 不伤害They take an oath: do no harm.
648 00:31:26 我们是除医生外最合适的We're the next best thing.
649 00:31:28 承包商到时我在那里I was there when the contractors arrived.
650 00:31:33 他们录了阿布·祖贝达的审讯过程They made tapes of the Abu Zubaydah interrogations,
651 00:31:35 但是其中21小时的but there's a 21-hour period
652 00:31:37 记录不见了 什么也没有where the transcripts are missing... nothing.
653 00:31:39 他们当时在用水刑They were using the waterboard.
654 00:31:41 祖贝达失去了意识Zubaydah lost consciousness.
655 00:31:43 他差点窒息而死 溺水He was choking to death, drowning.
656 00:31:45 不只是觉得自己溺水Not just thinking he was drowning,
657 00:31:47 他是真的溺水了he was actually fucking drowning.
658 00:31:50 他们跟我说水刑I was told that the waterboard
659 00:31:52 是别无他法时才会用was only gonna be used as a last resort.
660 00:31:54 承包商对囚犯做了评估The contractors did an assessment of the prisoner,
661 00:31:57 -他们决定... -什么评估- and they made a call... - What kind of assessment?
662 00:31:59 他们把他往墙上撞了几次They bounced him off the walls a few times
663 00:32:01 然后把他捆着 往他喉咙里灌水and then strapped him down and poured water down his throat.
664 00:32:04 我们知道这是一种不同的审讯手段We understand this is a different approach,
665 00:32:05 -但它有科学依据 -科学- but it's based on science. - Science?
666 00:32:08 得了吧 什么科学Come on. What science?
667 00:32:10 -你见过他们的科学吗 -他们认为水刑- Have you seen their science? - They believe the waterboard
668 00:32:12 起到了让囚犯服从的作用is working here to create compliance.
669 00:32:13 他们当然这么想Well, of course they do.
670 00:32:15 什么时候用是他们说了算They're the ones who get to decide when it's used.
671 00:32:17 有没有效果也是他们说了算And they're also the ones who get to decide if it's working.
672 00:32:19 这根本就不符合道德How is that even ethical?
673 00:32:21 我们面对的这些人使日常生活武器化The people we're dealing with weaponized daily life.
674 00:32:23 你想谈谈那事的道德吗Would you like to talk about the ethics of that?
675 00:32:27 我们是来确保那样的事不会再发生We're here to make sure that nothing like that ever happens again.
676 00:32:31 他们在某个山洞里训练自己的人They're training their people to resist traditional interrogations
677 00:32:33 抵抗传统审讯in the back of a cave somewhere.
678 00:32:35 所以我们需要改变方法So we need to change our approach
679 00:32:37 免得又一炸弹爆炸 又一幢楼坍塌before another bomb goes off or another building falls down.
680 00:32:41 好吧 好吧Okay, okay.
681 00:32:43 如果我们一个士兵被捕What is gonna happen when one of our soldiers gets captured
682 00:32:47 拿出一张写着日内瓦公约的卡片and takes out a card with the Geneva Convention on it
683 00:32:49 想被当人一样对待 会发生什么and wants to be treated like a human being?
684 00:32:52 你以为抓他的人会不记得You think his captors aren't gonna remember
685 00:32:55 这些人在这里受到了什么对待吗the way these people were treated here?
686 00:32:57 -这都为了什么 -你家里有孩子吗- And for what? - Do you have a kid at home?
687 00:33:03 我们不能再被打倒了We're not gonna get beat again.
688 00:33:06 除了站长Besides the chief of station,
689 00:33:07 你向上级汇报你的疑虑了吗did you report your concerns up the chain of command?
690 00:33:09 罗德里格斯主任给我们发了电报We got a cable from Director Rodriguez
691 00:33:12 告诉我们不要把审讯对象记录在案telling us to stop putting our objections in writing.
692 00:33:15 不要有书面记录No paper trail.
693 00:33:18 我告诉他们如果继续用新技术I told them if they were gonna keep using the new techniques,
694 00:33:20 我想退出I wanted out.
695 00:33:23 我不是唯一一个 大家都承受不住了I wasn't the only one. Guys were choking up.
696 00:33:27 都在电邮里It's all in the e-mails.
697 00:33:35 早在2001年11月As early as November 2001,
698 00:33:37 参议员谢尔登·怀特豪斯 罗德岛州
699 00:33:37 中情局的法务团队传阅了一份报告the CIA's legal team circulated a memorandum
700 00:33:40 描述了一种新的合法辩护describing a novel legal defense
701 00:33:42 为他们可能涉及使用酷刑的人员脱罪for their officers who might engage in torture.
702 00:33:44 不是吧 他们真的称之为酷刑吗Come on. They actually called it torture?
703 00:33:47 中情局The CIA?
704 00:33:48 他们忘了我们有法律禁止酷刑吗They just forgot we have laws against that?
705 00:33:50 是的 长官 米切尔和杰森改其名为Yes, sir. Mitchell and Jessen renamed it
706 00:33:52 "强化审讯"以帮助推广"enhanced interrogation" to help sell it,
707 00:33:54 但中情局一个受押人都还没有的时候but the Agency was talking about doing it
708 00:33:56 就在讨论那么做了before they even had a single detainee.
709 00:33:59 参议员 我的问题是My question, Senator, is:
710 00:34:01 中情局是怎么在还没囚犯时How did the CIA know they needed to torture prisoners
711 00:34:03 就知道他们需要对囚犯施以酷刑before they even had one?
712 00:34:06 这不是切尼和艾丁顿的主意吗That didn't come from Cheney and Addington?
713 00:34:08 情况似乎恰恰相反Seems like it happened the other way around.
714 00:34:09 中情局把这个项目带给布什政府The CIA took it to the Bush White House
715 00:34:12 及法律顾问办公室的约翰·尤and John Yoo at the Office of Legal Counsel.
716 00:34:15 现在情况是这样的So, here's where we're at.
717 00:34:16 正如2340章所描述 酷刑罪The crime of torture, as described in Section 2340,
718 00:34:16 法律顾问办公室2002年7月
719 00:34:20 需要被告 即本案中的审讯者requires that the defendant... in this case, an interrogator...
720 00:34:23 故意造成严重疼痛或痛苦intends to cause severe pain or suffering.
721 00:34:27 但本案中 那不是审讯者的意图But in this case, that's not the interrogator's intent.
722 00:34:30 没错 意图是获取情报 拯救美国人的生命Right. The intent is to gain intel, save American lives.
723 00:34:33 可是约翰 万一审讯者采用的手段But, John, what if the techniques the interrogator employs
724 00:34:36 还是会造成疼痛或痛苦呢do nonetheless cause pain and suffering?
725 00:34:39 这怎么处理How do we deal with that?
726 00:34:40 关键在于"严重疼痛或痛苦"Well, the key phrase is "severe pain or suffering."
727 00:34:44 但其实2340章从未定义"严重"一词But 2340 never actually defines the term "severe."
728 00:34:46 我们在医保条例中找到了这个定义We found this definition in a Medicare statute.
729 00:34:50 严重疼痛或痛苦指的是Severe pain or suffering:
730 00:34:52 "让人有严重危险且难以忍受的"acute symptoms that place the individual in serious jeopardy
731 00:34:55 急性症状"and are hard to endure."
732 00:34:57 意思是Meaning?
733 00:34:57 要构成酷刑To constitute torture,
734 00:35:00 造成的伤害必须达到器官衰竭the damage done must rise to the level of organ failure,
735 00:35:05 身体机能损伤或死亡的程度impairment of bodily function, or death.
736 00:35:08 所以基本上 如果有人死了 我们就做错了吗So, basically, if someone dies, we're doing it wrong?
737 00:35:11 如果总统认为有必要If the president deemed it necessary
738 00:35:13 碾碎一个孩子的睾丸to... crush the testicles of a child
739 00:35:16 来阻止飞机撞向大楼to stop a plane from crashing into a building,
740 00:35:18 以拯救美国人的生命to save American lives,
741 00:35:20 没有法律或条约能阻止他there is no law or treaty that could stop him.
742 00:35:23 我可以用同样的说法辩解I can make the same argument for
743 00:35:25 挖出囚犯的眼睛或用酸浇他gouging out a prisoner's eyes or dousing him with acid.
744 00:35:31 在我们看来In our opinion,
745 00:35:32 如果它提供能拯救生命的独特情报if it provides unique intelligence that saves lives,
746 00:35:36 且没有持续性伤害and doesn't cause any lasting harm,
747 00:35:39 那么总统下令就是合法的then it's legal for the president to order it.
748 00:35:41 "独特"指的是什么What do we mean when we say "unique"?
749 00:35:43 无法通过其他方式获得的情报Intelligence that couldn't have been obtained any other way.
750 00:35:50 你应该和白宫讨论过这一切吧And you've discussed all of this with the White House, I assume?
751 00:35:53 还有呢And?
752 00:35:55 他们告诉布什他们要怎么对待祖贝达了吗Did they tell Bush what they were gonna do to Zubaydah?
753 00:35:57 -没有 -国家安全顾问赖斯- No. - And National Security Advisor Rice...
754 00:35:59 她又在其中做了什么where was she in all this?
755 00:36:00 国家安全顾问赖斯被告知了这个项目National Security Advisor Rice was told about the program,
756 00:36:03 同时也被告知不要汇报总统but she was also told the president would not be briefed.
757 00:36:06 谁让总统的国家安全顾问Who tells the president's national security advisor
758 00:36:09 不要汇报总统not to brief the president?
759 00:36:13 切尼和艾丁顿Cheney and Addington.
760 00:36:15 根据中情局记录 布什直到2006年4月According to CIA records, Bush wasn't told about the program
761 00:36:18 即四年后 才被告知这个项目until April of 2006, four years later.
762 00:36:27 而且根据我们找到的记录And the records we found state
763 00:36:29 总统终于获知项目时that when the president was finally told about the program,
764 00:36:32 看到影像上一个受押人he expressed discomfort with the image of a detainee
765 00:36:36 被拴在天花板上 穿着尿片chained to the ceiling, wearing a diaper,
766 00:36:37 被逼排泄在自己身上 他表达了不适and forced to go to the bathroom on himself.
767 00:36:41 你还要多久才能完成报告 丹How long till you can get this thing done, Dan?
768 00:36:45 我们必须公之于众We've got to get this out.
769 00:36:51 这个人呢 古尔·拉赫曼What about this guy, Gul Rahman?
770 00:36:55 2002年11月在白沙瓦被捕Captured in Peshawar, November 2002.
771 00:36:57 他不在关塔那摩 哪也没有他He's not at Gitmo. He's-he's not anywhere.
772 00:37:06 古尔·拉赫曼Gul Rahman.
773 00:37:08 古尔Gul...
774 00:37:10 没有 他们没对委员会说起他No. They didn't tell the committee about him.
775 00:37:13 他是24号受押人He's detainee number 24.
776 00:37:18 古尔·拉赫曼
777 00:37:19 手脚被拷
778 00:37:20 使囚犯精神错乱
779 00:37:21 听觉超负荷
780 00:37:21 总部说他知道基地组织的行动细节HQ says he knows operational detail about Al Qaeda.
781 00:37:21 粗暴摔倒
782 00:37:22 有窗口的金属门 墙上有锁链摄像头 桶 墙底部有开口
783 00:37:25 中情局总部观察了寇博特羁押处的审讯
784 00:37:25 这家伙是个混蛋The guy's an asshole.
785 00:37:25 钴蓝拘留点2002年11月
786 00:37:27 用食物砸我们 威胁要杀了警卫Threw his food at us, he threatened to kill the guards.
787 00:37:30 我已向总部申请批准I've asked headquarters to approve the application
788 00:37:34 对该受押人使用强化审讯技术of the enhanced measures for this detainee,
789 00:37:37 申请通过了and the request has been approved.
790 00:37:39 好极了 我们还没能让他开口Great. We haven't had any luck loosening him up.
791 00:37:42 快说Come on!
792 00:37:43 让他在通道里跑个不停Ran him up and down the hall,
793 00:37:44 把他打个半死 还是什么都不说beat the crap out of him... nothing.
794 00:37:48 甚至尝试了叫"短拷"的手段Even been trying this thing they call short shackling.
795 00:37:52 把双手拴在地板的螺栓上Chain a dude's hands to a bolt on the floor.
796 00:37:55 把双脚也拴在同一螺栓上Then you chain his feet to the same bolt.
797 00:37:59 农民好像把这个叫"五花大绑"Farmers call it hog-tying, I think.
798 00:38:02 他终于承认了一些事He finally admitted to something.
799 00:38:04 承认了什么What was that?
800 00:38:05 承认他是我们说的那个人 古尔·拉赫曼That he was who we said he was: Gul Rahman.
801 00:38:12 你们首先要做的是剥夺他的掌控感What you want to do first is take away his sense of control.
802 00:38:17 如果你们想 我可以花些时间展示给你们看If you like, I could spend some time showing you
803 00:38:19 怎么通过强化审讯技术实现这一点how to achieve this with the enhanced techniques.
804 00:38:24 很好Great.
805 00:38:26 我们还有三十个囚犯要审We got another 30 guys here to deal with.
806 00:38:31 我听说你告诉医生你感觉冷I heard you told the doctor you were cold.
807 00:38:53 参议员 今早能和我谈几分钟吗Senator, do you have a few minutes this morning?
808 00:38:55 当然 进来吧 丹Absolutely. Come on in, Dan.
809 00:38:58 参议员需要到院内进行投票The senator is needed on the floor for a vote.
810 00:39:01 等她五分钟Give her five minutes.
811 00:39:04 你昨晚睡了吗 丹Did you sleep last night, Dan?
812 00:39:10 参议员 有个囚犯死了Senator, a prisoner died.
813 00:39:18 古尔·拉赫曼Gul Rahman.
814 00:39:21 他们认为他可能效力于阿富汗军阀They thought he was maybe working for an Afghan warlord
815 00:39:23 或者知道袭击的事or that he knew something about an attack.
816 00:39:25 -是真的吗 -不 他们还没查出什么他就死了- Did he? - No, he died before they found out
817 00:39:26 只查出了他的名字anything besides his name.
818 00:39:29 他们有天晚上往他身上倒了冷水Dumped cold water on him one night
819 00:39:30 第二天早晨发现他死在牢房里and found him dead in his cell in the morning.
820 00:39:32 验尸结果是体温过低The autopsy said hypothermia.
821 00:39:34 -你从哪知道的 -特别监察长的报告- Where did you get this from? - Inspector general's report.
822 00:39:37 中情局自己也调查了古尔·拉赫曼的死亡CIA did their own investigation into the death of Gul Rahman.
823 00:39:44 主管的职员被推荐The officer in charge was recommended
824 00:39:45 获得绩效奖金for a performance bonus.
825 00:39:47 他们提拔了他They promoted him.
826 00:39:48 他还在外执行任务He's still out there in the field.
827 00:39:55 你是在指控中情局谋杀吗 丹Well, are you accusing the CIA of murder, Dan?
828 00:40:00 因为我听起来就是这样的Because that sounds like where this is going.
829 00:40:03 我们有证据证明副局长We have proof the deputy director
830 00:40:05 指导了主管职员如何掩盖事实coached the officer in charge how to cover up what happened,
831 00:40:08 让他谨慎处理所记录的内容told him to be careful what he put in writing.
832 00:40:12 如果他们遵循了标准操作流程So, why would they need to cover it up
833 00:40:13 为什么还要掩盖事实呢if they were following standard operating procedure?
834 00:40:17 他们为什么不告诉委员会Why didn't they tell the committee?
835 00:40:19 他们为什么不告诉你Why didn't they tell you?
836 00:40:25 我要亲自审查一下这些I'm gonna need to review all this personally.
837 00:40:29 非常令人不安It's very disconcerting.
838 00:40:39 "令人不安" "非常令人不安""Disconcerting"? "Very disconcerting"?
839 00:40:41 丹 这件事你要小心Dan, you need to be careful here.
840 00:40:43 你掺入了个人情感You're getting emotionally involved.
841 00:40:46 他们杀了人 而没人被问责They fucking killed a guy, and nobody was held accountable?
842 00:40:50 我们不确定他是不是恐怖分子W-We don't know he was a terrorist.
843 00:40:52 -我们连他的名字都不确定 -我理解- We barely even know his name. - I understand.
844 00:40:55 而你需要理解的是And what you need to understand is that
845 00:40:56 出现在报告里的是她的名字 而不是你的her name is going on this report, not yours.
846 00:41:00 参议院职员无需参加改选Senate staff doesn't have to run for reelection,
847 00:41:02 但她需要but she does.
848 00:41:04 他们的法律文书说强化审讯技术不会造成持续伤害Their legal argument said EITs wouldn't cause lasting harm.
849 00:41:07 那古尔·拉赫曼什么时候能活过来So how long is Gul Rahman gonna be dead for?
850 00:41:19 你们看了这份帕涅塔的审查报告了吗Are you guys seeing this Panetta review?
851 00:41:21 突然蹦出来了It just showed up.
852 00:41:25 我不明白I don't understand.
853 00:41:26 中情局似乎进行了自己的调查Looks like the CIA did their own investigation.
854 00:41:27 帕涅塔局长高级审查团队引渡和拘留组项目
855 00:41:29 证明了我们发现的一切It confirms everything we've been finding.
856 00:41:37 你打算怎么处理它So, what are you gonna do with it?
857 00:41:41 希望用不上Hopefully, nothing.
858 00:41:44 我找特别检察官杜伦Special Prosecutor Durham, please?
859 00:41:44 帕涅塔审查报告最高机密 敏感信息隔离
860 00:41:47 我已经留言几次了I've already left several messages.
861 00:41:48 我是情报委员会的丹·琼斯It's Dan Jones again from the Intelligence Committee.
862 00:41:50 你好吗How are you?
863 00:41:52 很好 我只是想再确认一下Good. I just wanted to check in again to see
864 00:41:54 特别检察官有没有时间if the special prosecutor is available
865 00:41:55 见面商谈对中情局的调查to meet on the CIA probe.
866 00:41:59 可以是非正式的 我只是想交换一下意见It can be off the record. I just want to compare notes.
867 00:42:04 是 就是这个号码 谢谢Yeah, same number. Thank you.
868 00:42:10 我们得回想一下You know, we got to think back
869 00:42:11 911事件后的那段时期to the period after 9/11.
870 00:42:13 我们都不知道是谁袭击了我们We didn't even know who hit us.
871 00:42:14 我们都不知道哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德We didn't know that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was
872 00:42:16 是911事件的主谋the mastermind of 9/11
873 00:42:17 以及基地组织的行动指挥官or the operational commander of Al Qaeda.
874 00:42:19 然后我们开始围捕这些恐怖分子And then we started rounding up these terrorists.
875 00:42:19 军人还是平民恐怖分子审判辩论
876 00:42:20 我们抓到了阿布·祖贝达We caught Abu Zubaydah.
877 00:42:21 我们抓到了拉姆齐·比纳尔什布和哈立德We caught, uh, Ramzi bin al-Shibh and KSM.
878 00:42:24 而这些人在中情局的审讯下And these guys provided us information under questioning
879 00:42:26 为我们提供了情报 阻止了很多起恐怖袭击by the CIA that stopped a number of terrorist attacks.
880 00:42:30 他们计划炸毁They were pl-planning to blow up
881 00:42:31 美国在巴基斯坦卡拉奇的领事馆the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan.
882 00:42:34 -见鬼 -他们计划炸毁- Shit. - They were planning to blow up
883 00:42:35 我们在吉布提的海军陆战队营地our Marine camp in Djibouti...
884 00:42:43 -早上好 -哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德- Good morning. - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was
885 00:42:44 1995年在纽约被控告试图炸毁飞机indicted in New York for trying to blow up airplanes in 1995.
886 00:42:49 中情局早就知道他了The CIA already knew about him.
887 00:42:50 他们知道他与本·拉登关系密切They knew he was close to bin Laden.
888 00:42:52 在祖贝达供出他之前 他们就知道他了They knew about him before Zubaydah ever identified him.
889 00:42:54 你在这里多久了How long have you been here?
890 00:42:55 还有 根据这份电报 待了几个小时Also, according to this cable... a few hours...
891 00:42:57 伊斯兰堡的一名中情局职员a CIA officer in Islamabad
892 00:42:59 开始审讯一名他们口中的"线人X"began working someone they call Asset X.
893 00:43:02 X自称能直接接触到哈立德X claimed to have direct access to KSM,
894 00:43:05 但最终因为想要钱而被赶走but was eventually turned away when he asked for money.
895 00:43:08 -多少钱 -几千块- How much money? - Few thousand bucks.
896 00:43:11 两年后 他们一直拖着他Two years later, after they've been putting him off,
897 00:43:13 拖着他 最终还是给了putting him off, putting him off, they finally pay him,
898 00:43:15 然后他几乎立刻就发短信and almost immediately he sends a text
899 00:43:17 给他的中情局上线说 "我和哈立德在一起"to his CIA handler saying: "I'm with KSM."
900 00:43:20 与水刑毫无关系It had nothing to do with the waterboard.
901 00:43:22 -早上好 -早上好- Good morning. - Good morning.
902 00:43:29 哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德
903 00:43:31 对象 穆赫塔尔
904 00:43:32 计划袭击
905 00:43:32 受过训练的劫机者
906 00:43:33 面墙站立
907 00:43:34 剥夺睡眠
908 00:43:35 大声播放音乐
909 00:43:36 依旧不说
910 00:43:37 关键的威胁信息
911 00:43:38 拘留
912 00:43:40 蓝色拘留点
913 00:43:41 蓝色拘留点2003年3月
914 00:43:41 一 二 三One, two, three,
915 00:43:44 四 五 六four, five, six...
916 00:43:46 你在美国的同伙是谁Who are you working with in the U.S.?
917 00:43:48 七 八 九 十 十一...seven, eight, nine, 10, 11...
918 00:43:52 你的孩子在我们手上We have your kids!
919 00:43:53 十二 十三 十四 十五...12, 13, 14, 15,
920 00:43:56 十六 十七16, 17...
921 00:43:58 只要你开口 我们就停手It will stop if you talk!
922 00:44:04 下一次袭击在哪Where is the next attack?
923 00:44:06 金丝雀码头 金丝雀码头Canary Wharf! Canary Wharf!
924 00:44:11 好的 问题是这样的Okay, here's the problem.
925 00:44:12 我们已经知道了We already know about
926 00:44:14 希斯罗与金丝雀码头的袭击计划the Heathrow and Canary Wharf plots.
927 00:44:17 他也知道 他记在笔记本上了He knows that. It's in his goddamn notebook.
928 00:44:19 我们问的是在美国的袭击计划 不是伦敦的We asked about plots in the U.S., not London.
929 00:44:21 -他又在糊弄你 -说实话- He's fucking with you again. - To be honest,
930 00:44:24 我从未见过像这个家伙这么顽固的人I've never met a resistor like this guy.
931 00:44:27 他真很能扛He's a super resistor.
932 00:44:28 他骗了你 好让你住手He lied to you to make you stop.
933 00:44:30 他只交代我们已经掌握的情报He just tells us shit he knows we already have.
934 00:44:32 他只交代了这些That's all he does.
935 00:44:33 那这就是我们所了解到的Then that's what we're learning.
936 00:44:37 水刑让我们知道了这些信息That's what the waterboard is giving us.
937 00:44:42 我们现在知道他在撒谎了We now know he's lying.
938 00:44:44 难道不是应该帮我们得知真相吗I thought it was meant to give us the truth.
939 00:44:47 那真相就是 他在撒谎And... the truth is he's lying.
940 00:44:58 总部让我们再继续审Headquarters says we go again.
941 00:45:03 审讯的领导The chief of interrogations
942 00:45:04 下令为哈立德的直肠补液ordered the rectal rehydration Of KSM,
943 00:45:06 并不是出于健康原因not for health reasons,
944 00:45:08 而是为了展现对受押人的彻底控制but as a way of showing total control over the detainee.
945 00:45:11 尽管直肠补液这项技术Even though rectal rehydration was never
946 00:45:13 从未受到许可an approved technique.
947 00:45:15 彻底控制难道不是把他绑在墙上Total control isn't chaining the guy to the wall,
948 00:45:17 让他好几天不睡觉 并威胁他的家人吗keeping him awake for days, and threatening his family?
949 00:45:19 需要往他的屁股里插管子吗You need to shove a tube up his ass?
950 00:45:22 你的下半辈子就要这样度过This right here is the rest of your life
951 00:45:24 除非你跟我们说实话unless you start telling the truth.
952 00:45:26 然后他们重新对他施以水刑Then they went back to waterboarding him.
953 00:45:28 "当一名医务人员按压哈立德的...""When a medical officer pressed on KSM's..."
954 00:45:29 -等等 你说到哪了 -下一页- Wait. Where are you? - Next page.
955 00:45:31 "当一名医生按压哈立德的腹部时"When a medical officer pressed on KSM's abdomen,
956 00:45:33 他的口鼻中喷出了水"he expressed water from his mouth and nose."
957 00:45:35 所以他把所有的水都吞了下去So, he was swallowing all the water.
958 00:45:37 "3月17日"On March 17th,
959 00:45:38 水刑技术开始进化"the waterboard technique began to evolve."
960 00:45:43 审讯者用手控制哈立德Interrogators used their hands to maintain
961 00:45:44 将水不断注入他的口鼻a pool of water over KSM's nose and mouth.
962 00:45:58 你在美国国内的同伙是谁Who are the operatives inside the U.S.?
963 00:46:02 伊萨 伊萨Issa... Issa...
964 00:46:04 伊萨·阿尔布列塔尼Issa al-Britani.
965 00:46:08 下一次袭击在哪Where is the next attack?
966 00:46:10 蒙大拿M-Montana.
967 00:46:14 我们问出来了We got something.
968 00:46:17 哈立德告诉审讯者KSM told interrogators
969 00:46:18 他派了阿布·伊萨·阿尔布列塔尼到美国he sent Abu Issa al-Britani to the U.S.
970 00:46:21 招募蒙大拿的非裔美籍穆斯林to recruit African American Muslims in Montana
971 00:46:24 引爆加油站以及制造森林火灾to blow up gas stations and start forest fires.
972 00:46:26 蒙大拿Montana?
973 00:46:27 蒙大拿的穆斯林Muslims in Montana?
974 00:46:29 联调局对此也表示质疑The FBI had serious doubts as well.
975 00:46:33 之后 哈立德承认他交代的是Later, KSM admitted he just told them
976 00:46:34 他们想听的话 以免受酷刑what they wanted to hear to make it stop.
977 00:46:36 他们从他那里问出可靠的情报了吗So, did they get anything actionable from him at all?
978 00:46:40 能拯救性命的那种Anything that saved lives?
979 00:46:42 他们对他用了183次水刑 然后得出结论They waterboarded him 183 times, and then concluded
980 00:46:45 哈立德可能从未屈服 没说一句实话KSM may never be forthcoming or honest.
981 00:46:47 他们从他嘴里听到的一切Everything they got from him
982 00:46:49 要么是谎言 要么就是已经获取的情报was either a lie or something they already had.
983 00:46:52 好吧 我首先要问Well, okay, so my first question is:
984 00:46:55 如果水刑有用 为什么要用183次If it works, why do you need to do it 183 times?
985 00:47:01 或许等报告出来后Maybe when the report comes out,
986 00:47:02 人们都会明白这一点people will finally see that.
987 00:47:04 我们还是操心怎么把报告写对 写完吧Well, let's worry about getting it right, getting it done.
988 00:47:07 改变世界的话以后再说We can worry about changing the world later.
989 00:47:25 抱歉 我迟到了Sorry I'm late.
990 00:47:26 没关系It's okay.
991 00:47:28 -几乎没合眼 -来点咖啡吗- Barely slept. - Want some coffee?
992 00:47:34 我能问你点事情吗Hey, can I ask you something?
993 00:47:36 你有没有做过梦You ever, uh, have dreams,
994 00:47:39 梦到报告里的东西you know, about the stuff that's in the report?
995 00:47:43 有过 我梦到过我溺水了Yeah. I have one where I'm drowning.
996 00:47:46 我的手脚不能动弹 也无法呼吸I can't move my arms or legs. I can't breathe.
997 00:47:48 -然后我就醒了 -我昨晚梦到- That wakes me up. - Last night I dreamt
998 00:47:50 我被关在一个禁闭盒里I was trapped in one of those confinement boxes.
999 00:47:53 他们把我留在那They just left me there.
1000 00:47:55 你是丹尼尔·琼斯吗Daniel Jones, right?
1001 00:47:58 -我们认识吗 -我只是想当面告诉你- Do I know you? - I just wanted to tell you to your face
1002 00:48:00 你和那份报告都是垃圾that I think you and that report are garbage.
1003 00:48:03 -你说什么... -你又不在场- Excuse me... - You weren't there,
1004 00:48:05 所以你不知道哪种手段有效 哪种无效so you don't know what worked and what didn't
1005 00:48:06 不知道我们面对的是什么人or what we were up against.
1006 00:48:08 你或许没意识到 但我们是想You may not realize, but we were trying
1007 00:48:09 保护这个国家不被那些人毁掉to protect this country from people who want to destroy
1008 00:48:11 保护我们所相信的一切everything we believe in.
1009 00:48:13 你或许没意识到You may not realize it,
1010 00:48:15 但我们要做的也是同样的事but we're trying to do the exact same thing.
1011 00:48:17 你的狗屁报告永远都无法问世Your bullshit report will never see the light of day.
1012 00:48:25 我找特别检察官杜伦Special Prosecutor Durham, please.
1013 00:48:27 我是丹·琼斯 再次打来It's Dan Jones, calling again
1014 00:48:29 询问司法部对中情局的调查about the Justice Department investigation of the CIA.
1015 00:48:32 我们真的得见一面We really need to meet.
1016 00:48:35 是吗You have?
1017 00:48:39 好吧 他们有什么发现吗Okay, what are their findings?
1018 00:48:51 该死Fuck!
1019 00:48:53 什么都没有吗Nothing?
1020 00:48:55 一次起诉都没有吗No indictments at all?
1021 00:48:56 没有针对何塞·罗德里格斯和吉娜·海斯佩尔No charges against Jose Rodriguez or Gina Haspel
1022 00:48:58 销毁录像带的指控吗for destroying the tapes.
1023 00:49:00 没有针对中情局使用酷刑的指控Nothing against the CIA for torturing people.
1024 00:49:02 没有针对吉姆·帕维特或其他人Nothing against Jim Pavitt and the others
1025 00:49:04 提供错误信息的指控 什么都没有for providing misinformation, nothing at all.
1026 00:49:06 司法部表示他们没有足够的可采信证据DOJ says they don't have enough admissible evidence
1027 00:49:09 来给任何人定罪to convict anyone.
1028 00:49:10 你去找承包商 他们却受到保护You go after the contractors, and they're indemnified.
1029 00:49:13 你去找反恐中心主任You go after the head of Counterterrorism,
1030 00:49:14 他只会说他是在执行and he'd just say he was following orders
1031 00:49:15 中情局局长的命令from the CIA director.
1032 00:49:17 你去找局长 他...You go after the director, and he...
1033 00:49:18 他就会把总统搬出来well, he would just cite the president.
1034 00:49:19 白宫就会声称这涉及国家安全Then the White House would claim national security.
1035 00:49:22 司法部至少分享了他们的发现吧DOJ at least share what they found?
1036 00:49:24 没有No.
1037 00:49:28 他们什么都不肯交出来They won't turn anything over.
1038 00:49:32 现在只有我们在调查这件事了We're the only ones still looking at this.
1039 00:49:48 约翰·哈特的证词
1040 00:49:52 丹Dan?
1041 00:49:55 丹Dan.
1042 00:49:57 你知道在1978年You know a CIA officer
1043 00:49:58 一位中情局职员在国会testified before Congress in 1978 regarding the use of
1044 00:50:00 就在拉丁美洲使用肉体强迫审讯技术一事作证吗coercive physical interrogation techniques in Latin America?
1045 00:50:04 这位职员说使用这些技术得到的是And the officer said the techniques result
1046 00:50:05 错误答案 并已证明无效in false answers and have proven to be ineffective.
1047 00:50:08 在拉丁美洲之前 他们在越南也这样做And before Latin America, they did it in Vietnam.
1048 00:50:10 丹 我要跟你说件事Dan, I need to tell you something.
1049 00:50:10 他们知道没用 他们却继续用They knew it didn't work and they did it again.
1050 00:50:12 连自己人的话都不听Don't even listen to their own fucking people.
1051 00:50:13 我要退出这起调查了I'm leaving the study.
1052 00:50:15 我得到了一个工作机会 我无法拒绝I... I got a job offer, and I can't turn it down.
1053 00:50:20 抱歉 但是你没发现这件事对你的影响吗I'm sorry, but don't you see what this is doing to you?
1054 00:50:24 对我们所有人的影响To all of us?
1055 00:50:25 我的孩子们都在家里成长I mean, my kids are at home growing up,
1056 00:50:27 而我就在这里读他们是如何把电钻and I'm down here reading about how they put a power drill
1057 00:50:30 钻进一个人脑子里 他们是如何against one guy's head and-and how they pulled
1058 00:50:32 把另一个人的胳膊拉脱臼的another guy's arms out of his sockets.
1059 00:50:33 我就是这样度过我的周日And I just... this is how I'm spending my Sundays.
1060 00:50:36 还有我的周六的And my Saturdays.
1061 00:50:36 我每天都是这样过的This is how I spend every day.
1062 00:50:39 我做不下去了I just... I-I-I-I can't.
1063 00:50:45 我会在感恩节后离开I'm gonna leave after Thanksgiving.
1064 00:50:53 好的 我理解 好的Okay. I understand. Okay.
1065 00:50:57 感恩节Thanksgiving.
1066 00:50:58 那我们...我们还有几个月时间That gives us... that gives us a couple months.
1067 00:51:01 丹 现在已经十一月了Dan, it's November.
1068 00:51:05 下周就到感恩节了Thanksgiving is next week.
1069 00:51:09 目前为止我们写了多少页了 几千页吗How many pages have we written so far? Thousands?
1070 00:51:13 我们甚至不知道报告会不会公布We don't even know if this is ever gonna come out.
1071 00:51:17 录像带调查就从未公布The tapes investigation never did.
1072 00:51:18 仍然是机密It's still classified.
1073 00:51:20 你刚刚自己也说了You just said it yourself:
1074 00:51:21 中情局在1978年就知道这方法没用The CIA knew this shit didn't work in 1978,
1075 00:51:24 也没能阻止他们继续用and it didn't stop them from doing it again.
1076 00:51:29 我们已经在这里两年了 丹Look, we've been down here for two years, Dan,
1077 00:51:30 待在这个地下室in this basement.
1078 00:51:33 没人在等我们出来Nobody's waiting for us to come out.
1079 00:52:02 最高机密 没收
1080 00:52:03 照片
1081 00:52:05 战争罪
1082 00:52:06 中情局
1083 00:52:07 阿布格莱布监狱
1084 00:52:08 媒体
1085 00:52:09 刊登照片
1086 00:52:10 侵犯人权
1087 00:52:12 残忍
1088 00:52:13 异乎寻常
1089 00:52:13 2004年4月底
1090 00:52:14 这些令人震惊的照片显示美军shocking photos that apparently show U.S. troops
1091 00:52:14 伊拉克战争令人震惊的照片
1092 00:52:14 2004年4月
1093 00:52:16 虐待巴格达郊外监狱的受押人abusing detainees in a prison outside Baghdad.
1094 00:52:20 我们有麻烦了We have a problem.
1095 00:52:21 我和总统都公开表示Both myself and the president have gone on record
1096 00:52:23 我们不使用酷刑saying we do not torture people.
1097 00:52:27 他刚刚对联合国的支持酷刑受害者国际日He just made a statement for the U.N.'s goddamn
1098 00:52:29 发表了声明Day in Support of Victims of Torture.
1099 00:52:32 他怎么说的What-what did he say?
1100 00:52:37 "美国不使用酷刑"The United States does not torture.
1101 00:52:40 这违背了我们的法律和价值观It's against our laws and it's against our values.
1102 00:52:43 我没有授权过 我也不会授权"I have not authorized it, and I will not authorize it."
1103 00:52:50 我不确定我们俩会面临什么下场I'm not sure where that leaves either of us.
1104 00:52:53 事情是这样的So, here's the deal.
1105 00:52:55 法律顾问办公室有个新律师 杰克·戈德史密斯Some new lawyer over at OLC, Jack Goldsmith,
1106 00:52:59 他说约翰·尤的备忘录有问题is saying there are issues with the John Yoo memo.
1107 00:53:02 法律问题吗Legal issues?
1108 00:53:03 是的 还有特别监察长的报告Yeah, and there's the inspector general's report:
1109 00:53:05 关于战争罪和酷刑的指控allegations of war crimes and torture.
1110 00:53:08 整个项目都被当成替罪羊了Throws the whole program under the goddamn bus.
1111 00:53:11 报告说了什么What's it say?
1112 00:53:13 "特别监察长认为强化审讯技术"The inspector general finds that EITs are inconsistent
1113 00:53:17 与美国在人权问题上的with the public policy positions
1114 00:53:18 公共政策立场不一致"the United States has taken regarding human rights,"
1115 00:53:22 等等等等blah, blah, blah.
1116 00:53:24 "该项目在实施过程中"The program, as implemented,
1117 00:53:26 与中情局的描述大相径庭" 等等diverges sharply from how the CIA has described," blah, blah.
1118 00:53:31 "几乎没有证据表明水刑"There is also little evidence that the waterboard
1119 00:53:34 在获取信息方面是有效的"is effective in gaining information."
1120 00:53:36 特尼特局长想暂停这个项目Look, guys, Director Tenet wants to pause the program.
1121 00:53:41 我在911事件的前几个月You know, I retired from the Air Force
1122 00:53:44 从空军退役just a couple of months before 9/11.
1123 00:53:47 服役了22年22 years.
1124 00:53:51 然后那天早上我醒来And then I wake up that morning,
1125 00:53:53 我打开新闻台and I turn on the news and...
1126 00:53:58 看到发生了什么see what's happening.
1127 00:54:02 很多人就继续回去喝咖啡吃玉米片了A lot of people just went back to their coffee and cornflakes.
1128 00:54:06 但吉姆是想做点什么But Jim wanted to do something
1129 00:54:11 来保护人们的安全to keep people safe.
1130 00:54:13 我们今天就去找国家安全委员会We are going right back to the National Security Council today
1131 00:54:16 要求重新认证该项目and asking to have the program recertified,
1132 00:54:18 尽可能认证更多审讯技术as many techniques as possible.
1133 00:54:21 我们有计划We have a plan.
1134 00:54:23 谢谢 谢谢Thank you. Thank you.
1135 00:54:34 2004年7月6日 美国国家安全顾问康多莉扎·赖斯批准对受押人贾纳特·古尔 使用重新认证的强化审讯技术
1136 00:54:45 琼斯Jones.
1137 00:54:47 好的 参议员Yes, Senator.
1138 00:54:57 在周日的脱口秀节目中On the Sunday talk shows,
1139 00:54:58 前国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
1140 00:54:59 击毙奥萨马·本·拉登
1141 00:55:01 和前副总统迪克·切尼表示and former Vice President Dick Cheney argued
1142 00:55:03 强化审讯技术在突袭本·拉登住所的行动中enhanced interrogation techniques played a major role
1143 00:55:06 起到了重要的指引作用in leading up to the raid on bin Laden's compound.
1144 00:55:09 不 不是的 事情不是这样的No, that's not right. That's not what happened.
1145 00:55:11 -那不是酷刑 -我会调查的- It was not torture. - I'll look into it.
1146 00:55:12 我强烈建议我们继续这样做And, uh, I would strongly recommend that we continue it.
1147 00:55:15 争议的核心是一种被称为水刑的审讯手段At the heart of the controversy is a process called waterboarding.
1148 00:55:20 仅限美国参议院情报委员会职员进入
1149 00:55:22 好吧 中情局是这样说的Okay, here's what the CIA is claiming:
1150 00:55:24 他们对受押人使用了强化审讯技术后发现了本·拉登They got bin Laden after using EITs against detainees.
1151 00:55:31 他们说这一切都始于2002年阿布·祖贝达They say it all started in 2002 with Abu Zubaydah
1152 00:55:36 和一个叫做"调解人利雅得"的受押人and a detainee they called "Riyadh the Facilitator,"
1153 00:55:40 是他向阿布·艾哈迈德·科威特通风报信who tipped them off to Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti,
1154 00:55:42 他与本·拉登有联系who had ties to bin Laden.
1155 00:55:43 事情不是这样吗That's not what happened?
1156 00:55:44 事实是 在中情局抓获任何受押人之前The truth is the CIA was on al-Kuwaiti's phones,
1157 00:55:47 就已经监控了科威特的手机和电邮 得知了他的身份e-mails, identity, long before they captured any detainees.
1158 00:55:52 在他们有强化审讯技术项目之前Before they even had an EIT program.
1159 00:55:55 祖贝达告诉我们科威特和本·拉登没有关系Zubaydah told us al-Kuwaiti had nothing to do with bin Laden.
1160 00:55:58 和哈立德以及其他人也没有关系Same with KSM and-and the others.
1161 00:56:02 而现在中情局前局长迈克尔·海登But now we have former CIA Director Michael Hayden
1162 00:56:04 在广播里说这些都是通过强化审讯技术得来的on the radio saying this all came from EITs.
1163 00:56:07 而前司法部长穆凯西说And former Attorney General Mukasey is out there saying
1164 00:56:09 哈立德在遭受水刑后就什么都招了KSM broke like a dam after waterboarding.
1165 00:56:12 他在哪里说的Where is he saying that?
1166 00:56:13 《华尔街日报》 我找到了一个备忘录Wall Street Journal. I found a memo.
1167 00:56:16 几个月前的 三月的It's from a few months back, in March.
1168 00:56:17 叫"公开推出"It's called "The Public Roll-out."
1169 00:56:19 备忘录说中情局希望他们的公关人员The memo states the Agency wanted their PR people
1170 00:56:23 将突袭本·拉登和用强化审讯技术获取的情报联系起来to connect the bin Laden raid to intel obtained via EITs
1171 00:56:27 那时行动还没进行before it even happened.
1172 00:56:29 所以 只要中情局抓到了本·拉登So... if the CIA got bin Laden,
1173 00:56:32 那谁还在乎他们还做了什么呢then who cares what else it did?
1174 00:56:36 只要他们拯救了人命 就不需要被问责If it saved lives, there's no need for accountability.
1175 00:56:38 没错 他们在这个项目上骗了布什Exactly. They lied to Bush about the program.
1176 00:56:40 现在他们又在骗奥巴马总统Now they're lying to President Obama.
1177 00:56:42 这个关于本·拉登和强化审讯技术作用的文件This document about bin Laden and, uh, the role of EITs,
1178 00:56:46 不是真的it just isn't true.
1179 00:56:55 你想要我给白宫打电话吗You want me to get you the White House?
1180 00:56:59 打吧Let's do that.
1181 00:57:03 我们很清楚It's very clear to us
1182 00:57:06 强化审讯技术没有提供关于本·拉登的情报the EITs did not lead to bin Laden.
1183 00:57:09 中情局歪曲了这次行动The CIA is misrepresenting the operation.
1184 00:57:12 你肯定发现了吧I'm sure you see that, don't you?
1185 00:57:14 我不太明白 参议员I'm not sure I understand, Senator.
1186 00:57:16 行动成功了 这才是关键The mission was a success; That's the headline here.
1187 00:57:19 这是我国历史上的关键时刻This is a crucial moment in our nation's history.
1188 00:57:22 我想确认中情局没有利用它I want to make certain that the Agency isn't manipulating it
1189 00:57:27 来美化他们过去的行为to sanitize their own past actions.
1190 00:57:30 我会将你的担忧转告给国家安全顾问 参议员I will let the national security advisor know your concerns, Senator.
1191 00:57:34 -谢谢 -谢谢 范斯坦参议员- Thank you. - Thank you, Senator Feinstein.
1192 00:57:39 就这样吗That's it?
1193 00:57:40 他们不在乎这件事是假的吗They don't care the story is wrong?
1194 00:57:44 我认为我们不能指望白宫的支持了Well, I don't think we can look to the White House for support.
1195 00:57:57 刚刚发生了什么What the hell just happened?
1196 00:57:59 中情局让总统得以连任了The CIA just got the president reelected.
1197 00:58:02 事情就是这样That's what happened.
1198 00:58:07 这是有史以来最为重大的追捕行动It was the greatest manhunt of all time.
1199 00:58:11 你以为你知道这个故事了You think you know the story,
1200 00:58:14 但请坐好but hold on to your seats.
1201 00:58:16 《猎杀本·拉登》 一部引人入胜的新电影Zero Dark Thirty, the riveting new film,
1202 00:58:19 讲述了无人知晓的brings you the hunt for Osama bin Laden
1203 00:58:21 追捕奥萨马·本·拉登的故事as it has never been seen before.
1204 00:58:39 到此为止了 这是最后一个了This is it. The last guy we have.
1205 00:58:42 第119号 穆罕默德·拉希姆Number 119: Muhammad Rahim,
1206 00:58:45 2007年六月被捕captured June 2007.
1207 00:58:57 我们让拉希姆We kept Rahim awake
1208 00:58:58 2007年7月
1209 00:58:58 138个小时没有睡觉for 138 hours straight.
1210 00:59:01 使用了立正抓领Used the attention grasp,
1211 00:59:04 控头技术 强迫流食facial hold, dietary manipulation.
1212 00:59:07 拳击腹部 压力姿势Abdominal slaps, stress positions.
1213 00:59:10 我们甚至提出如果他合作 就给他一条毛巾We even offered him a towel to wear if he cooperated.
1214 00:59:13 他什么也没说Gave us nothing.
1215 00:59:14 他说如果我们伤害他He said that, if we hurt him,
1216 00:59:18 他就编造一些事情让我们住手he'd just make things up to get us to stop.
1217 00:59:20 然后他又说 任由我们处置And then he said he was at our mercy
1218 00:59:22 要杀要剐随便and we could kill him if we wanted.
1219 00:59:25 不能用水刑 继续审讯有什么用What's the point of moving forward without the waterboard?
1220 00:59:28 这就像打棒球没有球棒一样It's like trying to play baseball without the bat.
1221 00:59:30 我们已经审了他六十天We've been going at him for 60 days now,
1222 00:59:33 什么进展都没有not getting anywhere.
1223 00:59:35 问题是反恐中心没有给我们提供The problem is that CTC hasn't given us
1224 00:59:39 任何有利于审讯的情报any good intel to question him about.
1225 00:59:42 我们没有任何筹码We don't have any leverage.
1226 00:59:43 等等 你是心理学家Hold on. You're the psychologists.
1227 00:59:45 你说你会为我们获取情报You told me you were gonna get us intel.
1228 00:59:46 而现在你却说我们需要给你提供情报Now you're saying we need to give it to you?
1229 00:59:48 我想我们应该善待他一两周I'm thinking we improve his treatment for a week or two,
1230 00:59:54 给他一些希望 然后再狠狠地折磨他give him some hope, and then we go back at him hard
1231 00:59:58 制造一种无助感and create a sense of helplessness.
1232 01:00:00 或者我们可以试着策反他Or we could try recruiting him.
1233 01:00:05 跟他说 只要他肯开口Tell him he can be a
1234 01:00:07 就能成为中情局探员CIA agent if he talks.
1235 01:00:09 联调局就是这么干的The FBI does that.
1236 01:00:10 我们不是联调局 不会这么干We're not the FBI. We don't do that.
1237 01:00:12 科学的获取情报方式是The way the science works is
1238 01:00:14 只有在我们...we only get the intel after...
1239 01:00:17 要怎么样After what?
1240 01:00:19 为什么这么多人在你们的审讯下Why are so many of these guys still lying to us
1241 01:00:21 还是对我们撒谎after you work on them?
1242 01:00:25 秘诀在哪里Where's the special sauce?
1243 01:00:29 你们必须做出效果 有效果才合法You have to make this work. It's only legal if it works.
1244 01:00:34 中情局对穆罕默德·拉希姆的审讯The CIA's questioning of Muhammad Rahim
1245 01:00:36 没有得出任何情报报告resulted in zero intelligence reports.
1246 01:00:39 2008年4月21日 中情局On April 21, 2008, the Agency convened
1247 01:00:42 对他的审讯进行了事后审查an after-action review of his interrogation.
1248 01:00:45 参议员 我想指出这是中情局第一次Senator, I just want to point out that this is the first time
1249 01:00:46 停下来评估该项目的有效性the Agency stopped and evaluated the effectiveness of the program.
1250 01:00:51 他们得出的结论是 在未来And they concluded that, in the future,
1251 01:00:53 中情局的审讯人员应使用建立友好关系的方法CIA interrogators should use rapport building.
1252 01:00:58 他们还建议向其它机构They even suggested asking other agencies,
1253 01:01:01 执法机关 甚至是其它国家law enforcement, and even other countries
1254 01:01:03 咨询有效的审讯方法about effective interrogation methods.
1255 01:01:07 这么说So...
1256 01:01:11 在过去的六年里 中情局的人For the past six years, there's been a steady stream of CIA personnel...
1257 01:01:16 包括局长 副局长和分析员directors, deputies, analysts...
1258 01:01:19 源源不断地过来跟我说coming over here and telling me
1259 01:01:21 强化审讯技术有多成功what an amazing success EITs have been.
1260 01:01:25 但没有一个人跟我提过这件事Somehow not even one of them managed to mention that part.
1261 01:01:35 总共有多少名受押人经历过这个项目How many detainees have been through the program in total?
1262 01:01:42 至少119名At least 119.
1263 01:01:46 中情局承认其中有四分之一的受押人The Agency admits a quarter of them
1264 01:01:47 本不应该被拘留should never have been detained.
1265 01:01:50 强化审讯技术项目从没对任何人奏效The EIT program never worked, not on anyone.
1266 01:01:56 公众及媒体禁止入内
1267 01:02:04 今天 我们聚集在此批准Today, we are gathered to approve
1268 01:02:08 委员会对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查报告the committee's study of the CIA Detention and Interrogation Program.
1269 01:02:14 我要感谢丹尼尔·琼斯I would like to thank Daniel Jones
1270 01:02:17 和他的小团队准备了这项报告and his small staff who prepared this study.
1271 01:02:21 书记员 请唱名表决Clerk, would you call the roll?
1272 01:02:25 -尤德尔先生 -赞成- Mr. Udall? - Yay.
1273 01:02:28 -鲁比奥先生 -反对- Mr. Rubio? - Nay.
1274 01:02:31 -洛克菲勒先生 -赞成- Mr. Rockefeller? - Yay.
1275 01:02:34 -沃纳先生 -赞成- Mr. Warner? - Yay.
1276 01:02:36 -布朗特先生 -反对- Mr. Blunt? - Nay.
1277 01:02:39 -康拉德先生 -赞成- Mr. Conrad? - Yay.
1278 01:02:41 -科茨先生 -反对- Mr. Coats? - Nay.
1279 01:02:43 -纳尔逊先生 -赞成- Mr. Nelson? - Yay.
1280 01:02:46 -里施先生 -反对- Mr. Risch? - Nay.
1281 01:02:48 -米库斯基先生 -赞成- Ms. Mikulski? - Yay.
1282 01:02:51 -布尔先生 -反对- Mr. Burr? - Nay.
1283 01:02:53 -怀登先生 -赞成- Mr. Wyden? - Yay.
1284 01:02:55 -斯诺女士 -赞成- Ms. Snowe? - Yay.
1285 01:02:58 -钱布里斯先生 -反对- Mr. Chambliss? - Nay.
1286 01:03:02 范斯坦女士Ms. Feinstein?
1287 01:03:04 赞成Yay.
1288 01:03:09 动议通过The motion passes.
1289 01:03:11 报告现在将送交中情局作最后评论The report will now be sent to the CIA for final comments.
1290 01:03:20 我 约翰·欧文·布伦南I, John Owen Brennan,
1291 01:03:21 庄严宣誓 保证如实陈述真相do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the full truth,
1292 01:03:23 毫无隐瞒 上帝保佑and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
1293 01:03:26 谢谢 布伦南先生Thank you, Mr. Brennan.
1294 01:03:29 我很期待听到你的证词I look forward to hearing your testimony.
1295 01:03:34 今天我很荣幸I am honored to appear before you today
1296 01:03:36 能作为总统提名的中情局局长在此陈述as the president's nominee for director of the CIA.
1297 01:03:41 首先我想说 诚实与真诚I'd like to say from the beginning that honesty... truthfulness...
1298 01:03:46 是我在新泽西长大时was a value inculcated in me growing up in New Jersey
1299 01:03:49 我的父母欧文和多萝西反复灌输给我的价值观by my parents, Owen and Dorothy.
1300 01:03:51 人无完人Now, none of us are perfect beings.
1301 01:03:53 我并不完美I am far from perfect.
1302 01:03:55 但我将对委员会保持诚实But I will be honest with this committee
1303 01:03:57 并尽一切可能满足你们的合理需要和要求and do everything possible to meet your legitimate needs and requirements.
1304 01:04:02 布伦南先生Mr. Brennan,
1305 01:04:04 我一直认为 我们的政府对美国人民有义务I've long believed that our government has an obligation
1306 01:04:06 应当公开面对自己犯下的错误to the American people to face its mistakes transparently,
1307 01:04:11 帮助公众理解这些错误的性质to help the public understand the nature of those mistakes,
1308 01:04:14 并予以纠正and to correct them.
1309 01:04:16 强化审讯技术很残忍The enhanced interrogation techniques were brutal,
1310 01:04:20 也许最重要的是 它们并没有用and, perhaps most importantly, they did not work.
1311 01:04:23 中情局有责任Now, the CIA has a responsibility
1312 01:04:26 更正之前提供给to correct any inaccurate information it provided
1313 01:04:28 前任政府 司法部to the previous White House, the Department of Justice,
1314 01:04:30 国会和公众的任何不实信息Congress and the public.
1315 01:04:32 我的问题是So, here's my question:
1316 01:04:35 你是否同意中情局对此负有责任Do you agree that the CIA has this responsibility?
1317 01:04:38 希望你能回答是或否And I'd appreciate a yes or no answer.
1318 01:04:42 是的 参议员Yes, Senator.
1319 01:04:46 绝对有责任Absolutely.
1320 01:04:49 幕僚长办公室Office of the chief of staff.
1321 01:04:51 麦克多纳先生正在开会Mr. McDonough is in a meeting right now.
1322 01:04:53 全国广播公司新闻最新消息 《华尔街日报》民调显示According to the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll,
1323 01:04:53 支持率
1324 01:04:55 总统的支持率为百分之四十四the president's approval rating is at 44%.
1325 01:04:56 全国广播公司新闻 《华尔街日报》民调
1326 01:04:58 比三月份增长了三个百分点That's up three points since March...
1327 01:05:00 打扰了 麦克多纳先生Excuse me. Mr. McDonough.
1328 01:05:02 布伦南局长来了Director Brennan is here.
1329 01:05:05 你来了There he is.
1330 01:05:06 -祝贺 局长先生 -谢谢- Congratulations, Mr. Director. - Thank you.
1331 01:05:08 欢迎 请进 谢谢Welcome. Come on in. Thank you.
1332 01:05:10 谢谢你和奥巴马总统Thank you and thank President Obama.
1333 01:05:13 我会向他转达I'll let him know.
1334 01:05:13 说到这个Speaking of, uh,
1335 01:05:16 他想让我问问你 是否有关于he wanted me to ask you if there's any new information
1336 01:05:18 4月29日无人机袭击的最新消息on the drone strikes of April 29th?
1337 01:05:21 我们可以确认基地组织的策划者We can confirm that the Al Qaeda planner
1338 01:05:24 阿布·所罗门·艾尔加扎里已被击毙Abu Sulayman al-Jazairi has been killed.
1339 01:05:28 不幸的是 我们还认为Unfortunately, we also believe
1340 01:05:30 有五到十名平民伤亡that there were between five and ten civilian casualties.
1341 01:05:34 见鬼Shit.
1342 01:05:36 我会转告总统Well, I'll let the president know.
1343 01:05:38 情报委员会的调查报告怎么样What about the Intelligence Committee report?
1344 01:05:40 我们得谈谈这件事We need to talk about that.
1345 01:05:42 约翰 我们让中情局在二月前John, w-we gave the CIA until February
1346 01:05:45 作出回应 现在已经五月了to come up with its response; it's now May.
1347 01:05:46 范斯坦参议员不停地给我打电话I've got Senator Feinstein all over my phone sheet.
1348 01:05:50 我不想催促你们I don't want to be the one who has to push on this,
1349 01:05:51 但总统非常想解决这件事情but the president would really like to get this behind us.
1350 01:06:00 然后呢And?
1351 01:06:02 我们承认We acknowledge that
1352 01:06:04 拘留和审讯项目存在缺陷the Detention and Interrogation Program had shortcomings
1353 01:06:06 中情局犯了错and that the Agency made mistakes.
1354 01:06:08 其中最严重的问题发生在早期The most serious of those occurred early on
1355 01:06:10 其根源在于我们没有做好准备and stemmed from the fact that we were unprepared.
1356 01:06:15 如大家所知 我们在一些关键问题上有分歧Now, as you know, we part ways on some key points.
1357 01:06:19 根据我们的审查 有迹象表明According to our review, indications are that
1358 01:06:22 对受押人interrogations of detainees upon whom
1359 01:06:24 进行的强化审讯the enhanced interrogation techniques were used
1360 01:06:27 确实得到了独特的情报did produce unique intelligence
1361 01:06:30 这帮助我们阻碍了袭击计划that helped thwart attack plans,
1362 01:06:32 抓获了恐怖分子 拯救了生命capture terrorists, and saved lives.
1363 01:06:34 不好意思 强化审讯技术所收集的情报...Excuse me, intelligence gathered from EITs...
1364 01:06:35 这些情报继续为我们的反恐行动提供信息And that intelligence continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts.
1365 01:06:40 让我们找到了本·拉登It led us to bin Laden.
1366 01:06:43 不赞成这个项目是一回事Now, it's one thing to disapprove of the program.
1367 01:06:45 我愿闻其详I-I welcome that conversation,
1368 01:06:47 但要说我们对此处理不当 效率低下but it's something else altogether
1369 01:06:48 那就完全是另外一回事了to say that it was mismanaged and ineffective.
1370 01:06:50 不好意思 布伦南局长Excuse me, Director Brennan.
1371 01:06:52 报告基于中情局的记录The report is based on CIA records.
1372 01:06:54 中情局职员自称该项目无效CIA officers themselves called it ineffective.
1373 01:06:57 中情局职员CIA officers?
1374 01:06:59 你没有和该项目中的任何中情局职员谈过吧Well, you didn't speak to any CIA officers in the program,
1375 01:07:01 你有吗 丹did you, Dan?
1376 01:07:02 由于司法部的刑事调查Your lawyers would not make them available to us
1377 01:07:05 你们的律师不会让我们跟他们谈because of the Department of Justice's criminal inquiry.
1378 01:07:08 我们也不赞同该调查中对中情局We also disagree with the study's characterization of
1379 01:07:12 如何向国会 白宫和媒体汇报情况的描述how the CIA briefed Congress, the White House and the press.
1380 01:07:16 我们有文件可以证明汇报属实Now, we have documentation that certainly proves that.
1381 01:07:18 不好意思 先生 什么文件Excuse me, sir, what documents?
1382 01:07:20 如果局长指的是If the director is referencing
1383 01:07:21 我们没有见过的电报和邮件cables or e-mails we were never shown,
1384 01:07:23 那就违反了我们的协议then that's a violation of our agreement.
1385 01:07:25 一切资料都应该向我们提供Everything was supposed to have been provided to us.
1386 01:07:27 我们要让委员会进入Do we just give the committee access
1387 01:07:29 中情局的整个电脑系统吗to the entire CIA computer system?
1388 01:07:31 这就是所谓的协议吗Is that where this goes?
1389 01:07:33 丹要看每一封电邮 每一份文件Dan gets to read every e-mail, gets to see every document?
1390 01:07:37 是的 他要看每一份相关文件或电邮Every relevant document or e-mail, yes.
1391 01:07:42 我一直支持情报机构I have always supported the intelligence community.
1392 01:07:45 为了支持无人机项目I broke with my own party
1393 01:07:47 我与自己的政党分道扬镳to support the drone program,
1394 01:07:50 但这份报告非常清楚地表明but what this report makes very clear
1395 01:07:53 你们确实需要监督和问责is a real need for oversight and accountability.
1396 01:07:57 你们要求我们作出回应 我们做到了You asked for our response, and we gave it to you.
1397 01:07:59 我们反省了自己We looked in the mirror.
1398 01:08:02 我们的确犯了错Now, we made mistakes.
1399 01:08:05 项目存在弊端 这些弊端已得到解决There were abuses, and those abuses have been addressed.
1400 01:08:08 但我坚决不同意But I-I vehemently disagree with the narrative
1401 01:08:12 你们在报告中的说法that you're trying to string together here.
1402 01:08:14 它脱离了事情原委It lacks context.
1403 01:08:16 它没有准确地描述我们所做的工作It does not paint an accurate picture of the work that was done.
1404 01:08:20 走Let's go.
1405 01:08:21 参议员 报告上有约翰·布伦南的名字Senator, John Brennan's name is in that report.
1406 01:08:24 他当时是特尼特局长的幕僚长He was Director Tenet's chief of staff
1407 01:08:26 项目开始时 他是副执行局长and then deputy executive director when the program started.
1408 01:08:29 -他在中情局不断晋升 -他声称- He grew up at the Agency. - He claims to have
1409 01:08:31 -他反对过强化审讯技术项目 -哪里- spoken out against the EIT program... - Where?
1410 01:08:32 我花了五年时间看他们的电邮I just spent five years looking at their e-mails.
1411 01:08:34 从没找到任何信息表明这是真的I never found anything to suggest that's true.
1412 01:08:36 我们知道这并不容易Well, we knew this wasn't going to be easy.
1413 01:08:39 他们有自己的说法 并且会坚持下去They have their own narrative, and they're gonna stick to it.
1414 01:08:42 也许我们可以找到一个折中的办法Maybe we could come up with some middle ground,
1415 01:08:44 -找到一些共同语言 -我以为我们的工作- find some common language. - I thought our job
1416 01:08:46 是提供监督和进行问责was to provide oversight and accountability,
1417 01:08:48 而不是折中not middle ground.
1418 01:08:50 我问你个问题I have a question for you.
1419 01:08:52 你是为我工作还是为报告工作Do you work for me or for the report?
1420 01:08:56 我劝你好好想想再回答And I'd encourage you to think about that before answering.
1421 01:09:14 丹Dan!
1422 01:09:15 丹·琼斯Dan Jones.
1423 01:09:18 你在这啊There he is.
1424 01:09:19 瞧瞧你 参议院有史以来Look at you, chief investigator
1425 01:09:21 最大规模调查的首席调查员of the largest study the Senate's ever conducted.
1426 01:09:23 天呐 你最近怎么样My God. How you doing?
1427 01:09:25 很高兴看到你出来呼吸新鲜空气It's good to see you in the fresh air.
1428 01:09:27 -是啊 -说来好笑- Yeah. - It's so funny.
1429 01:09:28 我前几天晚上正好想到I was just thinking the other night,
1430 01:09:29 你还记得那时候你刚毕业do you remember that time you came and saw me,
1431 01:09:32 来找我的时候吗right after you got out of school?
1432 01:09:34 你说多积累点做情报的经验You said go get intel experience,
1433 01:09:36 等民主党在参议院东山再起wait till the Dems got the Senate back.
1434 01:09:37 看看你现在And look at you now:
1435 01:09:39 为参议院情报委员会工作working for the Senate Intelligence Committee
1436 01:09:40 为黛安·范斯坦工作for Dianne Feinstein.
1437 01:09:42 你之前跟我说你想带来改变You told me once you wanted to make a difference.
1438 01:09:44 我希望你还有那种机会I hope you still get that chance.
1439 01:09:46 -这是什么意思 -什么意思- What does that mean? - What does that mean?
1440 01:09:48 意思是 丹It means, Dan,
1441 01:09:48 不要再去管参议员调查中情局的事情了get out of the senator's head about the CIA.
1442 01:09:52 对你没有任何好处You're not doing yourself any favors.
1443 01:09:53 你读过报告了吗Have you read the report?
1444 01:09:55 七千页呢 丹It's 7,000 pages, Dan.
1445 01:09:58 圣经讲全人类的历史也没用那么多页The Bible tells the history of mankind in less than that.
1446 01:10:03 听着 伙计Look, buddy,
1447 01:10:05 我们会找中情局的人跟你面谈的we're gonna get the CIA to sit down with you,
1448 01:10:08 跟你讲讲他们的说法tell you their side of the story.
1449 01:10:10 你愿意听的话会有帮助的It would help if you would listen.
1450 01:10:14 这项调查引导读者去相信The study seems to most seriously diverge
1451 01:10:16 中情局向行政部门和国会from the facts by asking the reader to believe
1452 01:10:19 隐瞒信息the CIA withheld information
1453 01:10:21 这严重偏离事实from the executive branch and Congress.
1454 01:10:24 我们希望将那些内容从报告里删除We'd like to see that removed from the report.
1455 01:10:27 2004年阿布格莱布监狱的照片被曝光后After the photos of Abu Ghraib came out in 2004,
1456 01:10:29 麦克劳林副局长去过国会Deputy Director McLaughlin appeared before Congress,
1457 01:10:31 在你面前声称中情局没有被授权in front of you, and said the CIA is not authorized
1458 01:10:34 去做那些照片上的任何事情to do anything like what you've seen in those photos.
1459 01:10:36 但他们做的事情比这还要恶劣But what they were doing was even worse.
1460 01:10:38 然后在2005年 洛克菲勒参议员Then in 2005, Senator Rockefeller
1461 01:10:41 要求审查这个项目called for a review of the program,
1462 01:10:42 反恐中心副主任and the deputy chief of Counterterrorism
1463 01:10:44 对审查的走向感到紧张got nervous where that might lead.
1464 01:10:46 他给高层领导发了消息So he sent a message to senior leadership
1465 01:10:48 讨论了控制局势的必要性discussing the need to manage the situation.
1466 01:10:51 他说 "我们要么出去宣传 要么会被重创"He said, "We either get out and sell, or we get hammered.
1467 01:10:55 国会看了之后 会削弱我们的权力Congress reads it, cuts our authorities,
1468 01:10:58 削减我们的预算messes up our budget.
1469 01:10:59 我们要确保We need to make sure
1470 01:11:01 人们对我们的所为印象是积极的"the impression of what we do is positive."
1471 01:11:03 出自反恐中心副主任之口This is the deputy chief of Counterterrorism.
1472 01:11:06 这些内容都保留That all stays in.
1473 01:11:09 我们坚决反对对于We fundamentally disagree with the assertion
1474 01:11:11 这个项目管理和执行不当that the program was poorly managed and executed
1475 01:11:14 以及不合格的职员施加残忍的条件and that unqualified officers imposed brutal conditions,
1476 01:11:17 使用未经批准的技术并且很少受到追责的陈词used unapproved techniques, and were rarely held accountable.
1477 01:11:21 那米切尔和杰森呢What about Mitchell and Jessen?
1478 01:11:23 米切尔的博士论文写的是饮食和运动Mitchell's PhD thesis was on diet and exercise
1479 01:11:26 和控制高血压的关系for controlling hypertension.
1480 01:11:28 杰森的学位论文是关于家庭疗法的Jessen's dissertation was on family therapy,
1481 01:11:30 叫什么家庭雕刻something called family sculpting,
1482 01:11:32 就是捏一堆代表家人的泥人where you make clay figures of your family members.
1483 01:11:34 -他们拿了多少钱 -他们对于现实审讯- No. How much were they paid? - They had no experience
1484 01:11:35 没有任何经验in real-world interrogations.
1485 01:11:36 他们的话没有任何科学依据No science to back up their claims.
1486 01:11:38 他们还被允许They were allowed to assess
1487 01:11:39 丝毫没有科学依据地the effectiveness of their own program
1488 01:11:41 评价他们自己项目的有效性without providing any scientific evidence.
1489 01:11:43 美国纳税人How much in total
1490 01:11:45 一共给了他们多少钱did the U.S. Taxpayers give them for their work?
1491 01:11:49 超过八千万美元Over $80 million.
1492 01:11:51 局里还反对这个The Agency also disagrees that
1493 01:11:54 拘留和审讯项目没有产出the Detention and Interrogation Program did not produce
1494 01:11:57 可以瓦解袭击计划和拯救性命的unique intelligence that disrupted plots
1495 01:12:00 独特情报的说法and saved lives.
1496 01:12:02 例如 荷西·帕迪拉的身份For instance, the identity of José Padilla,
1497 01:12:04 "脏弹人"the "Dirty bomber."
1498 01:12:06 如果我们没有阻止帕迪拉If we hadn't stopped Padilla,
1499 01:12:07 现在这一整片区域可能还暴露在辐射里this entire area would be radioactive today.
1500 01:12:11 荷西·帕迪拉José Padilla!
1501 01:12:12 帕迪拉是在网上找到做脏弹的教程的Padilla found the instructions for his dirty bomb online,
1502 01:12:16 在一篇叫"制作和拥有一个氢弹in-in an article entitled "Making and owning an H-bomb
1503 01:12:19 是真正美国人寻求的挑战"的文章里is the kind of challenge real Americans seek."
1504 01:12:22 里面说"找到两桶铀It says, "Fill two buckets with uranium
1505 01:12:25 然后在头顶摇晃 越快越好"and swing them above your head as fast as possible."
1506 01:12:29 那就是个笑话It was a joke.
1507 01:12:30 就现在看来As far as we can tell,
1508 01:12:31 他们声称来源于强化审讯技术的所有情报everything they attribute to EITs they already had,
1509 01:12:34 都是通过其他来源 其他国家 其他方法from other sources, from foreign governments,
1510 01:12:36 已经得到的情报from other methods.
1511 01:12:38 他们声称拯救了生命They claim they saved lives, but what they really did
1512 01:12:40 但其实只是让人不能起诉was make it impossible to prosecute
1513 01:12:42 像哈立德一样的刽子手 因为如果他们的a mass murderer like KSM, because if what we did to him
1514 01:12:46 所作所为在法庭上暴露出来 这个案子就完了ever came out in a court of law, the case is over.
1515 01:12:49 那家伙策划了911事件The guy planned 9/11,
1516 01:12:51 没有去蹲一辈子监狱and instead of going to jail for the rest of his life,
1517 01:12:53 反而被中情局变成了我们还在打的the CIA turned him into a recruiting tool
1518 01:12:55 战争的征兵状for a war we're still fighting.
1519 01:13:01 别再跟他们面谈了Stop meeting with them.
1520 01:13:10 你编写的这个文件很出色This is a remarkable document you've created.
1521 01:13:13 真的Truly.
1522 01:13:15 它会成为永存的历史It will provide an enduring history,
1523 01:13:18 无论它公布与否whether it comes out or not.
1524 01:13:27 什么意思 "无论它公布与否"What does that mean, "W-whether it comes out or not"?
1525 01:13:28 她什么意思What does she mean?
1526 01:13:31 什么意思What does that mean?
1527 01:13:32 我们在这上面快花了五年了We've been working on this thing for nearly five years.
1528 01:13:34 是 但还是我们的一面之词Yes, and it is still our word against theirs.
1529 01:13:37 她需要的不止这些She's gonna need more than that.
1530 01:13:57 我是琼斯This is Jones.
1531 01:13:58 丹 我是埃文·坦纳Hey, Dan, this is Evan Tanner.
1532 01:13:59 我听到流言说报告可能不会公开了I hear rumors the report might not be coming out now.
1533 01:14:03 中情局有很大的意见A lot of pushback from the Agency.
1534 01:14:05 -他们说"有瑕疵" -谁告诉你的- They're calling it "flawed." - Who told you that?
1535 01:14:09 丹 我是《纽约时报》的Dan, I'm the national security reporter
1536 01:14:11 国家安全记者for The New York Times.
1537 01:14:12 你有什么想法吗Do you have any thoughts?
1538 01:14:16 流言不是我该谈论的It's not my place to talk about rumors.
1539 01:14:18 不 我想你也不会No, I didn't think you would.
1540 01:14:19 就是想问问你想不想作出评论I was wondering if you might want to comment.
1541 01:14:22 可以不公开身份It can be off the record.
1542 01:14:25 我觉得我们能互相帮助I just think we can help each other here.
1543 01:14:29 你知道我不能这么做You know I can't do that.
1544 01:14:34 关于卡洛琳·卡拉斯 我们了解的情况是And here's what we know about Caroline Krass:
1545 01:14:36 她在行政部门干了二十年20 years in the executive branch,
1546 01:14:38 包括了她在法律顾问办公室including the Office of Legal Counsel
1547 01:14:40 和约翰·尤共事的日子where she worked with John Yoo.
1548 01:14:41 各位 她的任职已经板上钉钉了Guys, this confirmation's a done deal.
1549 01:14:44 我们阻止不了We're not gonna stop it.
1550 01:14:46 但是这是个公开听证会 我觉得But it is a public hearing, and it just seems like
1551 01:14:50 有机会可以说点什么there's an opportunity to say something.
1552 01:14:53 你想说什么 参议员Wh-What are you looking for, Senator?
1553 01:14:55 或许是可以推进这个调查I don't know, something to move the study forward,
1554 01:14:57 让我们打破僵局的东西to break us out of this stalemate.
1555 01:15:02 有什么主意吗Any ideas?
1556 01:15:09 参议员 有一份文件Senator, there is a document.
1557 01:15:32 帕涅塔审查报告最高机密 敏感信息隔离
1558 01:15:50 你睡过觉吗 兄弟You ever sleep, bro?
1559 01:15:52 我以前会睡I used to.
1560 01:15:54 后来妨碍工作了Got in the way of work.
1561 01:15:55 包里有任何物品包含中情局职员Anything in that bag contain the real names of CIA officers,
1562 01:15:58 线人或合作伙伴的真名assets or partners, or any information
1563 01:16:01 或任何会违反that would be in violation of the agreement between
1564 01:16:03 中央情报局和美国参议院之间协议的信息吗the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Senate?
1565 01:16:06 -晚安 杰伊 -你也是 丹- Have a good night, Jay. - You, too, Dan.
1566 01:16:17 丹尼尔·J·琼斯首席调查员
1567 01:17:01 委员会会议正式开始The committee will come to order.
1568 01:17:04 今天 我们来参加卡洛琳·卡拉斯Today, we are gathered for the confirmation hearing
1569 01:17:07 担任中情局首席法律顾问的任职听证会of Caroline Krass to be general counsel of the CIA.
1570 01:17:12 欢迎 卡拉斯女士Welcome, Ms. Krass.
1571 01:17:15 能来到委员会面前我很荣幸I'm honored to be here before the committee,
1572 01:17:17 借此机会我想感谢我的家人and I'd like to take this moment to acknowledge my family
1573 01:17:20 谢谢他们的支持and thank them for their support.
1574 01:17:22 谢谢Thank you.
1575 01:17:24 开始之前 我想提醒大家Before we begin, I would like to remind members
1576 01:17:27 不要讨论机密的话题not to discuss classified topics
1577 01:17:29 或是提出需要机密答案的问题or ask questions which require a classified answer.
1578 01:17:33 说完这些 下面请尤德尔参议员发言With that said, I turn to Senator Udall.
1579 01:17:36 卡拉斯女士 很高兴又见到你了Ms. Krass, nice to see you again.
1580 01:17:38 我们上周有机会坐下来We had a chance to sit down last week
1581 01:17:40 谈谈参议院对于and discuss the Senate's study
1582 01:17:41 拘留和审讯项目的调查on the Detention and Interrogation Program.
1583 01:17:44 你跟我说觉得那个调查很晦涩You told me you found the study to be hard reading.
1584 01:17:49 同样是上周 出现了一些文章Also, last week, a number of articles appeared
1585 01:17:51 讨论批准委员会这项调查的投票discussing the one-year anniversary
1586 01:17:53 已经过去了一年的时间of the vote to approve the committee's study.
1587 01:17:56 有一篇文章指出And in one of those articles,
1588 01:17:57 中情局声称发现了重大错误the CIA claimed to have found significant errors.
1589 01:18:01 我得告诉你 我认为这种说法不准确Now, I got to tell you, I don't believe that is accurate.
1590 01:18:05 事实上 我比任何时候都更确信In fact, I'm more confident than ever
1591 01:18:08 委员会调查在事实上的准确性in the factual accuracy of the committee's study.
1592 01:18:12 我再重申一次 我比任何时候都更确信I want to say that again: I'm more confident than ever.
1593 01:18:17 中情局对于强化审讯技术项目进行过自我审查It appears that the CIA performed their own study of the EIT program,
1594 01:18:21 是由前局长帕涅塔发起的initiated by former Director Panetta.
1595 01:18:25 那份审查的发现And the findings in that review
1596 01:18:27 与我们委员会的报告完全一致are entirely consistent with our committee's report,
1597 01:18:30 但是令人惊讶的是but amazingly conflicts with
1598 01:18:33 跟中情局对报告的官方回应并不一致the CIA's official response to that report.
1599 01:18:38 为什么一个中情局内部的So, why is a review the CIA conducted internally,
1600 01:18:41 从来没有提交国会的审查and never revealed to Congress,
1601 01:18:44 跟中情局对于这份报告的官方回应截然不同so different from the CIA's formal response to the committee's report?
1602 01:18:49 你能回答吗Do you have an answer for that?
1603 01:18:55 现在不能not at this time.
1604 01:19:01 如果我想让公众知道帕涅塔审查If I wanted the public to know about the Panetta review,
1605 01:19:04 我早就自己告诉他们了I would have told them myself.
1606 01:19:06 我们听说共和党要We hear that the Republicans
1607 01:19:07 严厉批评尤德尔的讲话are gonna censure Udall for that performance.
1608 01:19:09 但是审查证明了我们的观点But the review proves our point.
1609 01:19:10 他们跟我们的发现是一样的They found the same things we did.
1610 01:19:12 中情局不知道如何或者在哪里拘人The Agency didn't know how or where to hold people,
1611 01:19:14 也不知道怎么审讯人didn't know how to interrogate people,
1612 01:19:16 但更重要的是 中情局确实把审查报告给我们了and, more importantly, the CIA did give it to us.
1613 01:19:19 我不知道是意外I don't know if it was an accident
1614 01:19:21 还是有告密者or it was a whistle-blower.
1615 01:19:22 如果有告密者Well, if it was a whistle-blower,
1616 01:19:24 你刚刚就暴露他们了you may have just exposed them.
1617 01:19:26 更别说你自己了Not to mention yourself.
1618 01:20:26 有发现了We got something here.
1619 01:20:28 局长要我今天以The director has asked me here today
1620 01:20:30 中情局法律顾问的身份过来in my capacity as Agency legal counsel.
1621 01:20:32 我们讨论的话题会产生重大的影响What we have to discuss has serious implications.
1622 01:20:37 好吧All right.
1623 01:20:38 我们有证据表明We have proof that the staff
1624 01:20:40 参议院情报委员会的职员of the Senate Intelligence Committee
1625 01:20:41 非法入侵了中情局的电脑网络illegally gained access to the CIA's computer network
1626 01:20:44 并获取了机密文件and obtained classified documents.
1627 01:20:47 什么样的证据What kind of proof?
1628 01:20:48 我们在丹尼尔·琼斯的电脑中We found the document in question
1629 01:20:50 发现了这一机密文件on Daniel Jones's computer.
1630 01:20:52 我们并未将其提供给他或委员会We did not provide it to him or to the committee.
1631 01:20:55 如果他没有入侵我们的系统 他是怎么取得的If he didn't hack us, how did it get there?
1632 01:20:59 我们认为琼斯和他的团队应该受到处分We feel that Jones and his team need to be disciplined.
1633 01:21:04 应该把他们立即开除Immediate dismissal is in order,
1634 01:21:07 我认为至少应该如此at a minimum, I would think.
1635 01:21:10 约翰 你是说你入侵了美国参议院的John, are you saying that you broke into the computer system
1636 01:21:15 电脑系统吗of the United States Senate?
1637 01:21:16 我们没给过你们那份文件的权限We never gave you clearance on that document.
1638 01:21:18 那是机密文件 你们却选择将其公开It was classified, yet you chose to make it public.
1639 01:21:22 我们已经把我们的调查及其结果We've made our investigation and our findings
1640 01:21:23 通知了白宫known to the White House.
1641 01:21:26 你在逗我吧You're fucking kidding me.
1642 01:21:29 他们说我入侵了They're saying I broke into
1643 01:21:31 世界上最为机密的电脑系统the most top secret computer system in the world?
1644 01:21:33 -布伦南和伊斯曼来了 -伊斯曼- Brennan and Eastman came over... - Eastman?
1645 01:21:35 伊斯曼的名字在报告里出现了无数次Eastman's name is in the report over a thousand times.
1646 01:21:38 -他不应该回避吗 -丹- That's not a conflict? - Dan.
1647 01:21:40 他们对你发起了刑事转介They filed a criminal referral against you.
1648 01:21:44 他们想让你不再掺和这事They want you gone.
1649 01:21:48 中情局怎么会认为我入侵了他们的系统H-How did the Agency come to the conclusion that I'm a hacker?
1650 01:21:53 他们是怎么知道我的电脑里有什么的H-How do they even know what's on my computer?
1651 01:21:54 他们说他们进行了搜查They say they conducted a search.
1652 01:21:56 搜查美国参议院Of the United States Senate?
1653 01:21:58 这个委员会建立的初衷就在于The whole reason this committee was established in the first place
1654 01:22:00 阻止中情局监视美国公民was to stop the CIA from spying on U.S. Citizens.
1655 01:22:03 参议员正在和哈里·里德The senator is talking to Harry Reid about
1656 01:22:04 -讨论这件事... -他们进那个房间了吗- that very thing... - Did they go into that room?
1657 01:22:06 那个房间是禁止进入的 他们进去了吗That room is off-limits. Did they go into that fucking room?
1658 01:22:08 我不知道I don't know.
1659 01:22:11 我不知道I don't know.
1660 01:22:15 但我知道共和党会支持他们I do know that the Republicans are gonna run with this.
1661 01:22:18 他们会利用这件事来诋毁这份报告They're gonna use it to discredit the report.
1662 01:22:19 他们会利用这件事来诋毁你They're gonna use it to discredit you.
1663 01:22:24 丹 他们要指控你违反法律Dan, they're accusing you of breaking the law.
1664 01:22:26 你得去请个律师You're gonna need a lawyer.
1665 01:22:33 中情局里流传着一句话There's a saying at the Agency:
1666 01:22:35 "什么都不承认"Admit nothing,
1667 01:22:36 什么都否认 提出反诉"deny everything, make counteraccusations."
1668 01:22:38 他们现在正是这么做的That's what they're doing.
1669 01:22:41 克利福德-贝格-维金斯律师事务所
1670 01:22:41 中情局正在调查你...The CIA is investigating you for...
1671 01:22:43 应该被调查的是他们 而不是我They're the ones who should be investigated, not me.
1672 01:22:45 琼斯先生 克利福德现在可以见你了Mr. Jones? Mr. Clifford will see you now.
1673 01:22:48 我们的电脑系统Our computer system
1674 01:22:49 甚至都没连接中情局的主机isn't even connected to the CIA mainframe.
1675 01:22:52 我难道是周末跑到中情局总部So did I just go over to Langley
1676 01:22:53 入侵了他们的系统吗and break in on a weekend?
1677 01:22:55 似乎是天方夜谭Seems unlikely.
1678 01:22:57 他们手上有什么证据So what evidence do they have?
1679 01:23:00 一份文件A document.
1680 01:23:02 一份文件 什么样的文件A document? What kind of a document?
1681 01:23:07 我不能告诉你I can't tell you that.
1682 01:23:09 因为是机密吗Because, what, it's classified?
1683 01:23:12 我被指派领导一项调查I was tasked to lead an investigation
1684 01:23:14 调查中情局于911事件后启动的一个项目into a CIA program they started after 9/11,
1685 01:23:17 他们将其称为强化审讯what they called enhanced interrogation.
1686 01:23:19 我猜你的调查结果对中情局有所批判And I assume your work is critical of the Agency?
1687 01:23:26 丹 这个国家有很多人You know, Dan, a lot of people in this country
1688 01:23:27 认为中情局为了保护他们felt the CIA was justified in doing
1689 01:23:29 而所做的一切都是正当的whatever they had to do to keep us safe.
1690 01:23:32 我有些朋友在那天失去了他们的亲人朋友I have friends who lost people that day.
1691 01:23:34 还有很多人在周四晚上看《24小时》And a lot of people watch 24 on Thursday nights
1692 01:23:36 听杰克·鲍尔说and hear Jack Bauer say,
1693 01:23:38 "我不想违反宪法"I don't want to bypass the Constitution,
1694 01:23:39 但现在是非常时期"but these are extraordinary circumstances,"
1695 01:23:41 他说完这话就用刀捅他们just before, you know, he sticks a knife in them
1696 01:23:44 逼他们说出阴谋and makes them give up a plot.
1697 01:23:45 这样是行不通的It-it doesn't work that way.
1698 01:23:48 温斯顿·丘吉尔说过Well, as Winston Churchill said,
1699 01:23:52 "历史是由胜利者书写的""History is written by the victors."
1700 01:23:57 其实不是丘吉尔说的 是赫尔曼·戈林说的Churchill didn't really say that; Hermann Goring did.
1701 01:23:59 他的原话是"我们在历史上留下的形象And what he said was, "We will go down in history
1702 01:24:02 要么是世界上最伟大的政治家either as the world's greatest statesmen
1703 01:24:03 要么是最坏的恶人"or its worst villains."
1704 01:24:05 所以你的报告将会决定So your report is gonna determine that:
1705 01:24:08 是政治家还是恶人statesmen or villains?
1706 01:24:15 你进行这项调查有多久了 丹How long have you been working on this project, Dan?
1707 01:24:18 五年Five years.
1708 01:24:20 五年 一切成果都可能化为乌有Five years, and it could all go away,
1709 01:24:23 因为这些指控而烟消云散just vanish in the face of these allegations.
1710 01:24:26 我完全能想象I can certainly imagine
1711 01:24:28 像你这样雄心勃勃的年轻人花费数年的时间an ambitious young man like yourself spends years
1712 01:24:30 埋头于调查一些可怕的场面with his head buried in some terrible spectacle,
1713 01:24:34 对调查过程感到沮丧gets frustrated with the process,
1714 01:24:36 遇到一个能更快传出真相的机会sees an opportunity to get the truth out faster,
1715 01:24:39 也许会选择越界maybe crosses a line.
1716 01:24:40 我猜这是你参与过的I'm assuming this is the most important thing
1717 01:24:42 -最重要的事情 -我没做- you've ever been a part of. - I didn't do it.
1718 01:24:43 又或是一位同样雄心勃勃的参议员Or I can see an equally ambitious senator
1719 01:24:45 鼓励你去做点什么encouraging you to do something.
1720 01:24:46 现在是告诉我的好机会Now would be a good time to tell me.
1721 01:24:48 不是那样的That did not happen.
1722 01:24:49 我的所作所为是个人行为 我独自行动What I did, I did on my own. I acted alone.
1723 01:24:52 -你确实偷了文件 -我没偷- So you did steal the document? - I did not steal it.
1724 01:24:53 -你需要用它来... -我转移了它- You needed it to... - I relocated it.
1725 01:24:55 我把它放进了保险柜I put it in a safe.
1726 01:24:56 如果他们有办法销毁录像带If they had a way of destroying tapes,
1727 01:24:57 -那他们肯定能... -每个人都各执一词- then surely they could get... - Everyone has their own words.
1728 01:24:59 语言是用来选择立场的The language is built to choose sides.
1729 01:25:01 你为什么要转移它Now, why did you relocate it?
1730 01:25:08 文件总有办法从服务器上消失Documents had a way of disappearing off the server.
1731 01:25:11 例如 在2010年 超过八百份文件For instance, in 2010, over 800 documents
1732 01:25:14 在没有任何解释的情况下消失了just vanished without any explanation.
1733 01:25:17 所以一直以来都存在电脑问题So you had computer issues all along.
1734 01:25:21 还有谁知道电脑上有什么Who else knew what was on the computers?
1735 01:25:23 中情局雇用外部公司来审查文件Well, the CIA hired an outside firm to vet the documents:
1736 01:25:26 中心公司Centra.
1737 01:25:27 CACI国际公司也参与其中And CACI was also involved.
1738 01:25:29 -他们是什么来头 -承包商- Who are they? - Contractors.
1739 01:25:31 但吉姆·帕维特是他们的董事会成员But Jim Pavitt is on their board.
1740 01:25:34 他是前中情局行动副局长Former deputy director of operations for the CIA,
1741 01:25:37 吉姆·帕维特 在项目期间也是他Jim Pavitt, during the program, Jim Pavitt.
1742 01:25:40 报告提及了他的名字吗And is he named in the report?
1743 01:25:43 不能告诉我Can't tell me.
1744 01:25:46 所以他们不能销毁文件So they can't destroy the document.
1745 01:25:48 于是他们选择其次的办法 针对你Then they can go after the next best thing: you.
1746 01:25:52 把你说成狂热分子Make you a zealot.
1747 01:25:54 你触及过的东西都被玷污了Anything you touch is tainted.
1748 01:25:57 可想而知 中情局会声称I could see the Agency saying that
1749 01:25:59 你违反了反间谍法this is a violation of the Espionage Act,
1750 01:26:01 计算机欺诈与滥用法the... Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,
1751 01:26:04 谁知道还有些什么who knows what else.
1752 01:26:07 如果他们指控我And if they file a charge against me,
1753 01:26:08 我会被判多少年how long could I go away for?
1754 01:26:11 说不好 二十年 或许还不止I don't know. 20 years, maybe more.
1755 01:26:24 我没有入侵中情局的电脑系统I did not hack into the CIA computer system.
1756 01:26:29 我的电脑水平停留在使用Word文档I mean, my com... my computer skills stop at Microsoft Word.
1757 01:26:33 他们可能清楚这一点They probably know that.
1758 01:26:36 我问你个问题Let me ask you something:
1759 01:26:36 参议院职员能挣多少钱How much does a Senate staffer make?
1760 01:26:39 我这个级别的话 大约能挣十万At my level? About-about a hundred grand.
1761 01:26:41 你有退休金 存款 或者家族财产吗Any retirement, savings, family money?
1762 01:26:43 没有No.
1763 01:26:46 那我们得谈谈我的预付费用So, we should discuss my retainer.
1764 01:26:48 -多少钱 -三万起- How much is that? - $30,000 to start.
1765 01:26:51 如果进入庭审阶段 后面得再一个零And if it goes to trial, add a zero.
1766 01:26:55 知道你坐在这和我谈话Nothing could make them happier
1767 01:26:57 他们再开心不过了than knowing you're sitting here talking to me.
1768 01:26:59 你正中他们下怀 丹That's what they want, Dan.
1769 01:27:01 把你的钱都花在我身上Make you bleed money all over my floor.
1770 01:27:05 你想要我的专业意见吗 不收费Do you want my expert opinion, for free?
1771 01:27:08 你面临的其实不是法律问题You don't really have a legal problem.
1772 01:27:11 你面临的是曝光度问题You have a sunlight problem.
1773 01:27:15 我相信你认识能帮你解决这个问题的人I'm sure you know people who can help you solve it.
1774 01:27:31 丹尼尔·琼斯Daniel Jones.
1775 01:27:33 我没想过你会回电I didn't think you'd ever return my calls.
1776 01:27:35 你的上级知道Does your boss know you're talking to a guy
1777 01:27:36 你和报社记者谈话吗with a byline and a tape recorder?
1778 01:27:37 我认为你应该调查一件事There's something going on I think you should look into.
1779 01:27:40 涉及到中情局It involves the Agency.
1780 01:27:43 好吧 是关于你正在编写Okay. Is it that report you've been working on,
1781 01:27:46 没有公布过的那份报告吗the one that never quite comes out?
1782 01:27:47 电脑 跟入侵电脑有关Computers. It has to do with the hacking of computers.
1783 01:27:51 好吧 谁的电脑All right, whose?
1784 01:27:54 美国参议院The United States Senate.
1785 01:27:57 有人入侵了美国参议院的电脑Someone hacked into the Senate?
1786 01:28:01 不会吧 好吧No shit? Okay.
1787 01:28:03 你知道是外国还是国内的人干的吗You have any idea if it was foreign or domestic?
1788 01:28:06 好吧 明白 你...All right, yes, you...
1789 01:28:08 抱歉 你刚刚提到中情局sorry, you said it was the Agency.
1790 01:28:09 中情局和参议院的电脑有什么关系So what-what does the CIA have to do with U.S. Senate computers?
1791 01:28:13 埃文 你是《纽约时报》的国家安全记者Evan, you're the national security reporter for The New York Times.
1792 01:28:15 你自己去查 好吗You can figure it out. All right?
1793 01:28:24 早上好 参议员Morning, Senator.
1794 01:28:25 你找我吗You wanted to see me?
1795 01:28:27 你知道这件事吗You know anything about this?
1796 01:28:29 "中情局拘留项目纷争中的电脑搜查""Computer Searches at Center of Dispute on CIA Detentions."
1797 01:28:33 你知道这是怎么出现在《纽约时报》上的吗You have any idea how that ended up in The New York Times?
1798 01:28:36 我看到这篇报道了 很准确Yeah, I saw that. It looks accurate.
1799 01:28:38 麦凯恩参议员已经开始把中情局称为流氓机构Senator McCain is already calling the CIA a rogue agency.
1800 01:28:41 你对爱德华·斯诺登这样的人有什么看法吗 丹What are your thoughts on someone like Edward Snowden, Dan?
1801 01:28:46 参议员 我知道你对于泄密的看法Well, Senator, I know how you feel about leaks.
1802 01:28:48 我认为他是个卖国贼 简单明了I think he's a traitor, plain and simple.
1803 01:28:51 我的职责是It's my job to provide oversight
1804 01:28:53 用治理工具进行监督with the tools of governance,
1805 01:28:54 而不是用媒体这一套not lights and cameras and headlines.
1806 01:29:01 你希望我辞职吗Do you want me to resign?
1807 01:29:07 不No.
1808 01:29:09 但我需要你帮我写一篇演讲稿But I think I might need you to write me a speech.
1809 01:29:16 范斯坦参议员今天在参议院发表讲话称Senator Feinstein claimed today on the Senate floor
1810 01:29:20 中情局入侵了参议院情报委员会的电脑that the CIA hacked the Senate Intelligence Committee's computers
1811 01:29:23 以阻挠一项对于过去行为的调查to thwart an investigation into past practices.
1812 01:29:26 你能进行回应吗Can you respond to that?
1813 01:29:27 首先 我们绝对不会Well, first, we in no way, shape or form
1814 01:29:31 试图阻挠调查报告的公布tried to thwart the release of the report.
1815 01:29:35 我们希望了结这件事We want that behind us.
1816 01:29:37 至于这起指控称As far as this allegation that
1817 01:29:38 中情局入侵了参议院的电脑系统the CIA somehow hacked into the Senate computer system,
1818 01:29:44 这与事实完全不符nothing could be further from the truth.
1819 01:29:46 我们绝不会那么做We just wouldn't do that.
1820 01:29:49 这完全不合理It's beyond the scope of reason.
1821 01:30:01 谢谢Thank you.
1822 01:30:03 我理解你的立场 参议员I understand your position, Senator,
1823 01:30:05 我也了解了布伦南局长的回应and I am aware of Director Brennan's comments.
1824 01:30:07 你听说了林赛·格雷厄姆今天早上Did you hear what Lindsey Graham said this morning,
1825 01:30:09 对于中情局入侵我们的电脑系统的评论吗about the Agency breaking into our computers?
1826 01:30:13 "立法部门应该对中情局宣战"The legislative branch should declare war on the CIA.
1827 01:30:16 有人应该被开除 有人应该去坐牢"Heads should roll, people should go to jail."
1828 01:30:20 这就是你想要的吗 让人坐牢Is that what you want? Send people to jail?
1829 01:30:23 监狱的存在是有原因的We do have jails for a reason.
1830 01:30:26 司法部调查了中情局The Justice Department investigated the CIA,
1831 01:30:28 然后决定不起诉and they decided not to prosecute.
1832 01:30:30 这是他们的决定 不是我们的It's their call, not ours.
1833 01:30:33 这届政府上台时Now, when this administration took office,
1834 01:30:34 面临着经济崩溃的极大风险we faced the very real possibility of economic collapse.
1835 01:30:39 我们得做出抉择We had a decision to make:
1836 01:30:40 要将政治资本消耗在Do we spend our political capital on going around
1837 01:30:43 追究责任人 还是解决问题trying to find people to blame, or do we solve the problem?
1838 01:30:45 也许解决问题的办法Maybe the way to solve the problem
1839 01:30:47 就是追究责任人is to hold people accountable.
1840 01:30:49 你有想过历史为何会重演吗Do you ever wonder why history repeats itself?
1841 01:30:52 我认为也许是因为Well, I think maybe it's because
1842 01:30:54 我们有时不会吸取以往的教训we don't always listen the first time.
1843 01:30:55 参议员 中情局的人 他们有家室Senator, the people at the Agency... they have families.
1844 01:30:59 他们的孩子可能会失去父母There are children who might lose a parent.
1845 01:31:04 几年前 某个极端组织在我女儿卧室窗外的Years ago, some radical group put a bomb in the flower box
1846 01:31:09 花箱里放了炸弹 就在这外面outside of my daughter's bedroom window, right out here.
1847 01:31:12 天气要是再暖和一些 可能就爆炸了Had it been any warmer out, it would have exploded.
1848 01:31:15 还有一次And then there was the time
1849 01:31:16 我发现哈维·米尔克被枪杀于自己的办公室that I found Harvey Milk shot to death in his office.
1850 01:31:21 我很清楚从事公共服务的风险I-I think I'm aware of the risks of public service.
1851 01:31:25 奥巴马总统上任三天后President Obama ended the torture program
1852 01:31:27 就关停了酷刑项目three days after taking office.
1853 01:31:30 中情局搞的强化审讯技术 不是我们的烂摊子The EITs, what the CIA did... that is not our mess.
1854 01:31:34 对 不是No, it's not,
1855 01:31:36 但这不是我们要问的问题 不是吗but that's not the question we're asking, is it?
1856 01:31:39 我们要问的问题是 谁来收拾这个烂摊子The question we're asking is: Who is going to clean it up?
1857 01:31:44 我们来收拾So let's do that.
1858 01:31:46 不过得先让布伦南局长向我和我的职员道歉Right after Director Brennan apologizes to me and my staff.
1859 01:31:52 特别监察长来了The Inspector General is here.
1860 01:31:54 进去吧Go ahead in.
1861 01:31:55 至于中情局搜查参议院电脑一事In regards to the CIA search of Senate computers,
1862 01:31:59 我们进行了调查we've looked into the matter
1863 01:32:01 并建议司法部and have recommended that the Department of Justice
1864 01:32:05 开启刑事调查begin a criminal investigation.
1865 01:32:07 很好Good.
1866 01:32:08 我们也是So have we.
1867 01:32:10 丹·琼斯 参议院首席调查员Dan Jones, lead Senate investigator.
1868 01:32:12 我说的不是参议院职员Not the Senate staff.
1869 01:32:14 是中情局The CIA.
1870 01:32:16 我们Us?
1871 01:32:18 你要控告我或我的职员违反法律吗Are-are you accusing me or my staff of breaking the law?
1872 01:32:21 我的理解是五名中情局职员My understanding is that five CIA employees
1873 01:32:24 进入了不允许进入的房间entered a room that was off-limits.
1874 01:32:27 是谁下的命令On whose orders?
1875 01:32:28 范斯坦参议员说得对Senator Feinstein is right to call
1876 01:32:30 这违背了三权分立的原则this a violation of the separation of powers.
1877 01:32:33 中情局不能监视参议院The CIA cannot spy on the U.S. Congress.
1878 01:32:40 作为特别监察长 我要针对中情局的行为As inspector general, I'm gonna have to launch
1879 01:32:42 发起一项全面调查a full investigation into the Agency's actions.
1880 01:33:06 我要去坐牢了吗Am I going to jail?
1881 01:33:07 不 他们撤销了指控No, they're dropping the charges.
1882 01:33:09 你要继续编写报告You're going back to work.
1883 01:33:11 选出最重要的调查结果 完成总结Take the most important findings, finish the summary...
1884 01:33:14 不能超过四百页no more than 400 pages.
1885 01:33:16 我要去让委员会投票表决将其公布I'm going to ask the committee to vote to release it.
1886 01:33:26 你也看到他们投票的结果了So, you saw they voted.
1887 01:33:28 十一比三11 to three.
1888 01:33:29 他们想公布一份概要They want to release an executive summary.
1889 01:33:31 如果公布出去 我的人会有危险That thing goes out, it puts my people in danger,
1890 01:33:34 那些现在身处危险境地的who are out there in a dangerous world today,
1891 01:33:37 履行职责的人trying to do their jobs.
1892 01:33:38 情况将对他们很不利Pulls the rug out from under them.
1893 01:33:40 任何你认为会危害到你的人的事情Anything that you feel puts your people in harm's way
1894 01:33:43 都将继续保密stays classified.
1895 01:33:44 我担心的是My concern is this:
1896 01:33:45 如果参议院公布一部分报告If-if the Senate puts out a small pile of pages
1897 01:33:48 媒体就会为之疯狂and the press goes nuts,
1898 01:33:49 然后每个人都想看到更多的报告then everybody's gonna want to see a bigger pile of pages.
1899 01:33:52 你一直说总统想让这件事翻篇You keep saying the president wants to turn the page.
1900 01:33:54 那就赶紧翻篇Well, then turn the page.
1901 01:33:57 了结这件事Close the damn book.
1902 01:34:05 范斯坦参议员要求白宫Senator Feinstein has asked the White House
1903 01:34:07 负责最终的评论和编写to head up final comments and redactions.
1904 01:34:10 她想把我们拉下水She wants us right in the middle of it.
1905 01:34:14 然后呢And?
1906 01:34:15 然后我认为这正是你所希望的And I think that's exactly where you want us.
1907 01:34:19 你可以涂黑不想公布的部分You'll have the pen.
1908 01:34:24 领导层指示Leadership specified
1909 01:34:25 我们可以删去任何可能会导致that we should redact anything that could result in
1910 01:34:26 外勤职员面临法律风险的内容legal exposure for officers in the field,
1911 01:34:29 无论是过去还是现在past or present.
1912 01:34:31 基本上 只要存在疑问 就涂黑Basically, if there's any questions, black it out.
1913 01:34:41 你看到这个了吗You see this?
1914 01:34:51 搞什...What the...
1915 01:34:53 这是在搞什么fuck is this?
1916 01:34:58 下午好 玛茜人呢Good afternoon. Where's Marcy?
1917 01:34:59 在会议室Conference room.
1918 01:35:00 下周初Early the next week.
1919 01:35:02 周三Wednesday.
1920 01:35:05 嗯 可以Yeah, that'll work.
1921 01:35:06 把议事日程给我 谢谢And you get me the agenda. Thank you.
1922 01:35:11 想象一下你拿起一本书Imagine you pick up a book,
1923 01:35:13 在第237页"空白"化水为酒and "Blank" turns water into wine on page 237,
1924 01:35:13 此处三件事都是耶稣所为
1925 01:35:16 在第71页"空白"治愈了一个麻风病人and on page 71 "Blank" Heals a leper,
1926 01:35:19 在第295页"空白"死而复生and on page 295 "Blank" rises from the dead.
1927 01:35:23 要怎么才知道这些空白都是同一个人How do you know the blanks are all the same person?
1928 01:35:25 中情局不是同意使用化名吗I thought that the CIA agreed to using pseudonyms.
1929 01:35:28 是的 但现在连化名都被涂黑了They did, but now even the fake names are gone.
1930 01:35:31 还有日期And the dates.
1931 01:35:35 整个事件都被涂黑了The entire story is gone.
1932 01:35:45 我希望你今天能强势一点I hope you took your strong pills today.
1933 01:35:49 知道事情的经过还不够吗Isn't it enough to know what actually happened?
1934 01:35:51 我们需要知道参与者的名字吗Do we need to know the names of the people involved?
1935 01:35:53 但参与者的真名并未出现在报告中But the actual names aren't in the report.
1936 01:35:56 有人能根据他们的化名Someone could figure out who our people are
1937 01:35:57 猜出他们是谁based on their pseudonyms.
1938 01:35:59 我在网上看到了一张我丈夫的照片You know, I found a photo of my husband
1939 01:36:01 表明了我和他的关系on the Internet linking him to me.
1940 01:36:03 秘密是很难保守的Secrecy is very hard to maintain.
1941 01:36:04 我记得你在你的任命听证会上I believe you introduced your husband publicly
1942 01:36:06 公开介绍了你的丈夫at your confirmation hearing.
1943 01:36:07 上了公共事务频道It was on C-SPAN.
1944 01:36:09 其中的一些参与者正在外执行任务Some of these people... they are out there in the world, right now.
1945 01:36:12 是的 没错Yes, they are.
1946 01:36:13 亚历克站的一位职员There's an officer from Alec Station
1947 01:36:15 在五百页的文件里被提及了41次mentioned 41 times in 500 pages.
1948 01:36:17 1998年 她的团队未能阻止In 1998, her team missed the bombing
1949 01:36:19 美国驻肯尼亚和坦桑尼亚大使馆的炸弹袭击of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya and Tanzania.
1950 01:36:22 1999年 他们未能阻止1999, they missed the bombing
1951 01:36:23 伊斯兰堡万豪酒店的炸弹袭击of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad.
1952 01:36:25 2000年 她被告知有两个基地组织成员In 2000, she was made aware of two Al Qaeda operatives
1953 01:36:28 抵达了洛杉矶who arrived in Los Angeles.
1954 01:36:30 在本·拉登小组工作的联调局探员FBI officers, working within the bin Laden unit,
1955 01:36:32 请求进行调查的许可requested permission to investigate.
1956 01:36:34 我们不打算这么做That's not how we want to play it.
1957 01:36:36 中情局知道他们来了美国The CIA knew they were on American soil
1958 01:36:38 却毫无作为and didn't do anything.
1959 01:36:40 阿米达接着离开了美国Al-Mihdhar then left the States
1960 01:36:41 在科尔号袭击事件中扮演了关键角色to play a key role in the bombing of the USS Cole,
1961 01:36:44 之后他回到美国和哈兹米一起劫持了77号航班before returning to hijack Flight 77 with al-Hazmi
1962 01:36:47 撞进了五角大楼and crash into the Pentagon.
1963 01:36:48 你想保护这个人的身份And you want to protect this person's identity.
1964 01:36:51 我们还想删去承包商的化名We'd also like to redact the pseudonyms of the contractors.
1965 01:36:54 米切尔博士的名字已经登上《纽约时报》了Dr. Mitchell was already quoted by name in The New Yorker.
1966 01:36:58 他还在专业会议上分发手册He was handing out brochures at professional conferences
1967 01:37:00 告诉别人他为中情局工作telling people he worked for the CIA.
1968 01:37:02 如果我们要保护中情局职员的身份If we are protecting the identities of CIA staff,
1969 01:37:05 我们同样需要保护我们的承包商we need to protect our contractors as well.
1970 01:37:08 米切尔和杰森承包的是Mitchell and Jessen were given a contract by the Agency
1971 01:37:10 中情局一个无效的项目for a program that didn't work.
1972 01:37:12 中情局还和他们的公司The CIA also agreed to a five million dollar
1973 01:37:14 签订了一个五百万的保障条款indemnification clause for their company that covered,
1974 01:37:16 除了其他费用外 还用以支付刑事起诉的费用among other expenses, criminal prosecution.
1975 01:37:20 我把用在哈立德身上的碎布留下来了You know, I kept the rag we used on KSM.
1976 01:37:24 风波过去后你应该把那玩意挂网上卖了You should eBay that bad boy when this is all over.
1977 01:37:27 赚一大笔钱Make a mint.
1978 01:37:30 中情局的一份内部备忘录得出结论An internal CIA memo concluded
1979 01:37:32 称米切尔和杰森"对于几乎所有同事都持有的that Mitchell and Jessen "have both shown blatant disregard
1980 01:37:35 道德伦理展现出明目张胆的漠视"for the ethics shared by almost all of their colleagues."
1981 01:37:38 承包商的化名必须保留The pseudonyms for the contractors need to stay.
1982 01:37:43 各位 这件事我们已经商量几个月了Guys, we've been at this for months.
1983 01:37:45 黑狱的地点呢What about the locations of the black sites?
1984 01:37:46 国名呢The country names?
1985 01:37:47 我们向那些国家承诺过替他们保密We made commitments to those countries to maintain their secrecy.
1986 01:37:51 不能出现国名No country names.
1987 01:37:52 这几点是不容谈判的Not open to negotiating these points.
1988 01:37:54 我们得考虑到中情局的士气We need to consider the morale of the CIA here.
1989 01:37:56 我们如果公布了这份报告Now, we-we publish this report,
1990 01:37:58 -很有可能我们将失去他们 -失去他们- there's a very good chance we could lose them. - Lose them?
1991 01:38:00 什么意思What does that mean?
1992 01:38:01 那中情局里那些站出来反对这个项目的What about the morale of all the people at the Agency
1993 01:38:03 那些人的士气呢who spoke out against the program?
1994 01:38:05 他们呢What about them?
1995 01:38:06 他们从黑狱发回电报People who sent cables back from black sites
1996 01:38:09 说自己想被调离saying they wanted to be transferred
1997 01:38:10 因为他们对那里正在发生的事情感到厌恶because they were disgusted by what was being done.
1998 01:38:12 好了 听着All right, look.
1999 01:38:13 正是丹替我们We have... Dan more than anyone...
2000 01:38:16 在没人愿意的情况下have worked to uncover the truth about this
2001 01:38:18 揭开了这件事的真相when no one else would.
2002 01:38:19 我们不会允许行政部门We will not allow this to be covered up
2003 01:38:21 掩盖这件事by the executive branch.
2004 01:38:23 奥巴马总统将其称为酷刑President Obama called it torture.
2005 01:38:24 布什和切尼才不会这么做Bush and Cheney wouldn't do that.
2006 01:38:26 他签署了行政命令来中止这个项目He signed an executive order getting rid of it.
2007 01:38:30 好好想想 万一不幸Now, just imagine, God forbid,
2008 01:38:31 在我们的任上又出现恐怖袭击there's another terrorist attack on our watch.
2009 01:38:34 此后二十年都不会再有There won't be another Democrat
2010 01:38:36 民主党人入主白宫in the White House for 20 years.
2011 01:38:38 我还想谈谈哈立德部分的删减I'd also like to talk about the redactions concerning KSM.
2012 01:38:42 科里·加德纳 来自共和党的挑战者Cory Gardner, the Republican challenger,
2013 01:38:45 将成为下一任来自will be the next United States senator
2014 01:38:46 科罗拉多州的参议员from the state of Colorado,
2015 01:38:48 他击败了现任民主党参议员马克·尤德尔defeating the Democratic incumbent, Mark Udall.
2016 01:38:51 这是共和党的一场重大胜利A major, major win for the Republicans.
2017 01:38:54 克里斯·弗雷茨在科罗拉多州为您带来最新情况Chris Frates is standing by in Colorado.
2018 01:38:56 沃夫 这对科罗拉多州而言意义重大This is huge for, uh, Colorado, Wolf.
2019 01:38:58 这是共和党自2002年以来第一次This is the first time a Republican has won
2020 01:39:01 在科罗拉多州拿下参议院席位the Senate race state-wide in Colorado since 2002.
2021 01:39:05 这是科罗拉多州的重要一夜Big night for Colorado,
2022 01:39:06 也是两党争夺参议院控制权的重要一夜and a big night for control of the United States Senate.
2023 01:39:12 她在等你She's expecting you.
2024 01:39:15 我刚刚接到So, I just got a call
2025 01:39:17 国务卿克里的来电from Secretary of State Kerry.
2026 01:39:20 他认为这份报告的公布He thinks that, with the release of the report,
2027 01:39:23 打击伊斯兰国的同盟将会瓦解that the coalition against ISIL could collapse.
2028 01:39:28 时机选的真好Isn't that a bit convenient?
2029 01:39:29 -他在这个时候打给你... -丹- He calls you just before... - Dan.
2030 01:39:31 克里是从哪得知这个情报的 中情局吗Where did Kerry get his intel on this? The CIA?
2031 01:39:34 -可信吗 -我们的大使馆可能会受到袭击- Is it credible? - Embassies could be attacked.
2032 01:39:37 人质可能会被杀害Hostages could be killed.
2033 01:39:38 这不过是另一种拖延战术罢了It's just another stall tactic.
2034 01:39:42 他建议把报告交给总统He suggested giving the report to the president,
2035 01:39:45 这样报告就能在事态平稳下来后公布so that it could be released later, when hostilities cease.
2036 01:39:49 参议员 你在一周后就将失去对委员会的掌控You lose control of the committee in a week, Senator.
2037 01:39:51 是的 我很清楚共和党人占多数后Yes, I am aware of what happens
2038 01:39:53 会出现什么情况 丹when the Republicans are in the majority, Dan.
2039 01:39:58 我也很想公布这份报告Look, I want to get this report out as much as anyone,
2040 01:40:01 但我和他相识很久了but I have known him a long time.
2041 01:40:04 我倾向于相信他I tend to believe him.
2042 01:40:05 没人会公布这件事的Nobody else is gonna tell this story.
2043 01:40:07 -丹 参议员还要参加午宴 -如果我们现在停手- Dan, the senator has a luncheon. - If we stop now,
2044 01:40:08 我们不就成了掩盖这件事的同谋吗aren't we a part of the cover-up?
2045 01:40:10 不是说要强势吗 参议员Strong pills, Senator?
2046 01:40:21 我觉得你应该回家好好休息I think you should go home and get some rest.
2047 01:40:25 你看着很疲惫You look tired.
2048 01:40:28 玛茜 等我五分钟Marcy, if I could have five minutes.
2049 01:40:31 没问题Of course.
2050 01:40:42 帕涅塔审查报告最高机密 敏感信息隔离
2051 01:40:42 委员会对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查报告概要
2052 01:42:11 你见过一个叫格雷戈·克雷格的人吗Did you ever meet a guy called Greg Craig?
2053 01:42:16 见过...奥巴马上台时的白宫顾问吗Just in pa... White House counsel when Obama took office?
2054 01:42:19 -点头之交 -好吧- Just in passing. - Right.
2055 01:42:22 总统当选后 让克雷格So, right after he got elected, the president asked Craig
2056 01:42:26 想办法处理to come up with a plan to deal with
2057 01:42:28 酷刑项目带来的后果the aftermath of the torture program.
2058 01:42:30 于是他把国防部长盖茨 珍妮特·纳波利塔诺So, he got Secretary of Defense Gates, Janet Napolitano,
2059 01:42:33 希拉里·克林顿这些位高权重的人叫到房间Hillary Clinton... serious people... in a room,
2060 01:42:36 他征询他们的建议and he asked for their recommendation.
2061 01:42:39 -然后呢 -然后他们的共识是- And? - And the consensus was that
2062 01:42:43 总统应该任命一个独立的两党委员会the president should appoint an independent bipartisan commission
2063 01:42:46 来调查审讯和被拘留者的待遇into interrogations and detainee treatment,
2064 01:42:49 深入调查这一项目的效果like a deep dive into what worked and what didn't
2065 01:42:51 以及责任人and... who was responsible.
2066 01:42:55 就像他们在911事件后做的那样You know, like what they did after 9/11,
2067 01:42:56 就像你一直在做的事情那样and like what you've been trying to do.
2068 01:43:00 那他们为什么没有这么做So why didn't they do that?
2069 01:43:01 显然 总统认真听取了Well, evidently, the president listened closely
2070 01:43:04 他们的建议to the recommendation.
2071 01:43:06 他考虑了一下 然后拒绝了He then thought about it, and then he said no.
2072 01:43:11 他竞选期间一直声称自己持后党派立场He'd spent an entire campaign saying he was post-partisan,
2073 01:43:15 要清算布什政府的错误so going after the Bush administration
2074 01:43:17 与之对抗flew in the face of all that.
2075 01:43:19 在那之后 那个房间里的每个人改变主意了And right then, everyone in that room changed their minds.
2076 01:43:24 他们选择支持总统 不成立独立委员会They sided with the president: no independent commission.
2077 01:43:28 只有克雷格不同意Everyone except Craig,
2078 01:43:31 因为他认为这件事太过重要because he thought it was too important.
2079 01:43:34 你不能对人施以酷刑You couldn't just torture people,
2080 01:43:37 隐瞒它 试图使其不为人知lie about it, and then hide it from history.
2081 01:43:41 几个月后 克雷格辞职了A few months later, Craig was gone,
2082 01:43:44 这个烂摊子落在了参议院and this mess wound up with the Senate.
2083 01:43:47 还有你的手里And you.
2084 01:43:49 总统肯定清楚他这么做Well, the president must have known that, by doing that,
2085 01:43:51 会使调查变得几乎不可能he was making it next to impossible.
2086 01:43:53 他之前当过参议员He came from the Senate.
2087 01:43:56 丹 他们派你造了一艘船Dan, they sent you off to build a boat,
2088 01:43:59 但他们并不打算让它出海but they had no intention of sailing it.
2089 01:44:02 他们可能都没想到你能走到今天这步They probably didn't think you'd get as far as you did.
2090 01:44:09 回答我一个问题Let me ask you a question.
2091 01:44:11 如果中情局知道酷刑没有用If the CIA knew that torture didn't work,
2092 01:44:15 他们为什么要一直用它why did they continue to do it?
2093 01:44:18 911事件后 每个人都担惊受怕After 9/11, everyone was scared...
2094 01:44:23 害怕这样的事情还会发生...scared it might happen again,
2095 01:44:25 如果发生了 中情局将会受到责难and the CIA would be blamed if it did.
2096 01:44:27 或许他们感到羞愧Or maybe they were ashamed.
2097 01:44:29 世界上最出色的You know, how come the most sophisticated
2098 01:44:31 情报组织怎么会intelligence organization on Earth
2099 01:44:33 连自己的人民都保护不了couldn't keep its own people safe?
2100 01:44:36 但恐惧和羞愧不会造就更好的政策决定But fear and shame don't make for better policy decisions,
2101 01:44:39 而我们抓到的人and the fact that the people who we captured
2102 01:44:40 与我们的长相不同 信仰不同didn't look like us or believe the same things we do
2103 01:44:43 使对他们使用酷刑变得容易多了made it that much easier to do the things we did.
2104 01:44:45 所以中情局的项目一启动So once the CIA program started,
2105 01:44:47 他们就得一直告诉人们这是有效的they had to keep telling people it worked,
2106 01:44:48 即使事实并非如此even if it wasn't true.
2107 01:44:49 他们自己的立场是如果无效 就是非法的Their own position was that if it didn't work, it was illegal.
2108 01:44:53 所以他们歪曲了结果So they misrepresented the results.
2109 01:45:08 如果能拿到你的报告 我们明天就会印刷出来If we had your report, we would print it tomorrow.
2110 01:45:13 一字不漏All of it.
2111 01:45:16 参议员说她会公布报告的摘要The senator said she would release a summary of the report.
2112 01:45:19 真的吗Really?
2113 01:45:20 在中情局和白宫的反对下Over the objections of the CIA and the White House?
2114 01:45:22 你真的以为这会发生吗You really think that's gonna happen?
2115 01:45:23 如果我给了你 会发生什么If I gave it to you, what would happen?
2116 01:45:33 有些人会认为你是英雄Some people will think you're a hero,
2117 01:45:34 而有些人大概会认为你是卖国贼and some will probably think you're a traitor.
2118 01:45:37 爱德华·斯诺登就是如此Look at Edward Snowden.
2119 01:45:49 不 如果要公布No. If it's gonna come out,
2120 01:45:50 只能以正确的方式公布it's gonna come out the right way.
2121 01:45:53 如果没能公布呢What if it doesn't?
2122 01:45:55 那我就没尽到职责Then I didn't do my job.
2123 01:46:00 抱歉I'm sorry.
2124 01:46:02 抱歉Sorry.
2125 01:46:48 正在进行民主党会议
2126 01:46:50 搞定了平价医疗法案后So, with the Affordable Care Act behind us,
2127 01:46:53 总统想要the president would like to
2128 01:46:54 认真探讨移民改革事宜begin a serious discussion about immigration reform.
2129 01:46:57 显然我们现在在两院Now, obviously we've had some setbacks
2130 01:46:59 遇到了一些挫折in both the House and the Senate,
2131 01:47:02 所以策略是至关重要的 以及团结so strategy has become paramount... unity as well.
2132 01:47:05 所以我们想认真探讨一下...So, we would like to really start talking about...
2133 01:47:08 打断一下 麦克唐纳先生Excuse me, Mr. McDonough.
2134 01:47:10 我想讨论一下关于中情局的调查报告I would like to discuss the report on the CIA
2135 01:47:12 以及白宫对此的立场and the White House's position.
2136 01:47:14 这不是这场会议的议题That's not the topic of this particular caucus.
2137 01:47:17 总统愿意讨论...The president would like to discuss...
2138 01:47:18 我国做了纳粹做过的事Our country did things the Nazis did,
2139 01:47:21 那些让我们谴责其他政权的事things that made us condemn other regimes.
2140 01:47:24 这届政府的立场And the position of this administration
2141 01:47:27 是隐瞒这个信息is to suppress this information,
2142 01:47:28 来保护那些做了这些事的人吗to keep the people who did these things safe?
2143 01:47:30 我可以向你保证这不是I can assure you that is not
2144 01:47:32 这届政府的立场 参议员the position of this administration, Senator.
2145 01:47:34 你和约翰·布伦南You worked with John Brennan
2146 01:47:36 在国家安全委员会共事过at the National Security Council.
2147 01:47:38 我知道布伦南在总统上任后Now, I understand that Brennan gave this president
2148 01:47:41 向他做了第一次安全简报his first security briefing when he took office.
2149 01:47:43 现在中情局的布伦南局长And now CIA Director Brennan
2150 01:47:45 在无人机项目上与总统紧密合作is working closely with the president on the drone program.
2151 01:47:49 好笑的是You know, it's funny.
2152 01:47:50 我每次去中情局Every time I go over to the CIA,
2153 01:47:52 他们都说我替参议院办事they claim I'm doing the Senate's bidding,
2154 01:47:53 而我每次来这里and every time I come here,
2155 01:47:55 你们都说我替中情局办事you claim I'm doing the CIA's bidding.
2156 01:47:56 我的任期只剩下几天了I only have a few days left in my term here,
2157 01:48:00 如果在我离任前没有公布报告的计划and if there isn't a plan to release the report before I go,
2158 01:48:04 我准备好在参议院的台上把报告读一遍了I'm prepared to read it on the floor of the Senate.
2159 01:48:07 到那时只能白宫And either the White House
2160 01:48:08 或共和党人来阻止我了or the Republicans will have to stop me.
2161 01:48:10 你想我们怎么做What would you have us do?
2162 01:48:12 如果我们现在追究布什和切尼的责任Now, we go after Bush and Cheney on this,
2163 01:48:14 要如何阻止共和党what's to prevent the Republicans
2164 01:48:15 报复我们 废止医保呢from coming back at us and trying to repeal health care?
2165 01:48:19 我们如果追究中情局的责任 他们可能会说We go after the CIA, uh, maybe they say,
2166 01:48:22 "那好吧 移民改革不予讨论""Okay, well, immigration reform is off the table."
2167 01:48:25 他们或许会针对控枪议题Maybe it's gun control.
2168 01:48:27 民主确实是一团乱麻Now, democracy is messy...
2169 01:48:31 但仔细想想but let's just think
2170 01:48:32 世界上有几个国家how many countries there are in the world
2171 01:48:35 会允许编写这样的报告where a report like this could even get done.
2172 01:48:42 我想让我国不仅仅允许编写报告I would like us to be more than the country that did the report.
2173 01:48:45 我想让我国允许公布报告I'd like us to be the country that made it public.
2174 01:48:48 这才是我希望看到的结果And that is what I intend to see happen.
2175 01:48:53 有请来自加州的资深参议员发言I yield the floor to the senior senator from California.
2176 01:49:11 在过去的六年里Over the past six years,
2177 01:49:13 一个调查小组仔细研读了a small team of investigators pored over
2178 01:49:16 超过630万页中情局记录more than 6.3 million pages of CIA records
2179 01:49:21 以完成这份报告to complete this report.
2180 01:49:24 调查表明中情局十年前的行为It shows that the CIA's actions a decade ago
2181 01:49:28 是我国价值观和我国历史上的污点are a stain on our values and on our history.
2182 01:49:32 这份五百页报告摘要的公布The release of this 500-page summary
2183 01:49:35 没法清除这个污点cannot remove that stain,
2184 01:49:37 但它能够告诉我国以及世界人民but it can and does say to our people and the world
2185 01:49:41 美国足够强大 足以承认自己的错误that America is big enough to admit when it's wrong
2186 01:49:46 足够自信 足以吸取过去的教训and confident enough to learn from its mistakes.
2187 01:49:49 公布这份报告是重塑我们的价值观Releasing this report is an important step toward
2188 01:49:53 以及向世界展示我们是一个restoring our values and showing the world
2189 01:49:56 公正的法治社会的重要一步that we are, in fact, a just and lawful society.
2190 01:50:01 会有人利用这份报告 大肆宣扬There are those who will seize upon the report and say,
2191 01:50:05 "看看美国人干的好事""See what the Americans did?"
2192 01:50:08 他们会利用这份报告And they will try to use it
2193 01:50:10 来为他们的恶行辩护 或煽动更多的暴力to justify evil actions or to incite more violence.
2194 01:50:15 我们没法阻止这一点We cannot prevent that.
2195 01:50:17 但历史会评判But history will judge us
2196 01:50:19 我们维护公正的法治社会的承诺by our commitment to a just society governed by law
2197 01:50:24 我们面对丑陋真相的意愿and the willingness to face an ugly truth
2198 01:50:27 以及保证"决不再犯"and say "Never again."
2199 01:50:31 谢谢Thank you.
2200 01:50:32 现在有请来自亚利桑那州的参议员I now yield the floor to the senator from Arizona.
2201 01:50:38 令人惊讶的是What might come as a surprise
2202 01:50:40 这些酷刑在将911事件的is how little these practices did to aid our efforts
2203 01:50:43 罪魁祸首绳之以法to bring 9/11 culprits to justice and
2204 01:50:46 以及防止现在和未来的恐怖袭击上几乎毫无作用to find and prevent terrorist attacks today and tomorrow.
2205 01:50:50 这令人瞠目结舌That could be a real surprise,
2206 01:50:52 因为这与情报职员since it contradicts the many assurances
2207 01:50:54 公开和私下的很多承诺provided by intelligence officials,
2208 01:50:57 互相矛盾on the record and in private,
2209 01:50:57 参议院对于中情局审讯的调查报告约翰·麦凯恩参议员
2210 01:50:59 他们声称强化审讯技术在反恐战争中that enhanced interrogation techniques were indispensable
2211 01:51:03 是必不可少的in the war against terrorism.
2212 01:51:05 我认为断言我们不靠这种手段就没法赢得战争I think it's an insult to the many intelligence officers
2213 01:51:08 对于很多情报职员来说是一种侮辱who have acquired good intelligence
2214 01:51:10 他们没有伤害或侮辱囚犯without hurting or degrading prisoners
2215 01:51:12 就获取了可靠的情报to assert we can't win this war without such methods.
2216 01:51:16 是的 我们能获胜 而且终将获胜Yes, we can, and we will.
2217 01:51:20 但到头来But in the end,
2218 01:51:22 酷刑没能实现其目的torture's failure to serve its intended purpose
2219 01:51:24 不是反对使用酷刑的主要理由isn't the main reason to oppose its use.
2220 01:51:28 问题不在于我们的敌人 而在于我们自身This question isn't about our enemies; it's about us.
2221 01:51:33 在于我们过去和现在是怎样 以及渴望变成怎样It's about who we were, who we are, and who we aspire to be.
2222 01:51:38 在于我们向世人展现什么样的形象It's about how we represent ourselves to the world.
2223 01:51:42 我们的敌人丧失良知Our enemies act without conscience.
2224 01:51:45 我们决对不能We must not.
2225 01:51:50 黛安·范斯坦参议员于今日Senator Dianne Feinstein today
2226 01:51:52 揭露了中情局已经不再使用的exposed the CIA's now extinct
2227 01:51:54 强化审讯技术enhanced interrogation techniques.
2228 01:51:57 参议院今天的所作所为The thing that strikes me about
2229 01:51:58 参议院调查报告猛烈抨击中情局的审讯手段
2230 01:51:58 打动我的地方在于what the Senate was doing today...
2231 01:52:00 黛安·范斯坦 杰伊·洛克菲勒Dianne Feinstein, Jay Rockefeller...
2232 01:52:02 他们竭尽所能is they were doing everything they can
2233 01:52:04 确保这种事情不再发生to make sure this doesn't happen again.
2234 01:52:06 因为像这样将其公开...Because by going public like this...
2235 01:52:08 丹Dan.
2236 01:52:11 干得很好You did well.
2237 01:52:12 谢谢Thank you.
2238 01:52:15 谢谢Thank you.
2239 01:52:17 "如果你想这么做 我们不会放过你的""We're gonna be on you if you try to do this."
2240 01:52:36 报告公布后 丹尼尔·J·琼斯离开了委员会
2241 01:52:46 2015年 奥巴马总统签署了麦凯恩-范斯坦宪法修正案禁止中情局使用强化审讯技术
2242 01:53:13 报告提及的涉及这些行为的中情局职员无一被起诉
2243 01:53:17 其中很多人还得以升职
2244 01:53:20 其中一人成为了中情局局长
2245 01:53:27 "如果有美国士兵如此不道德且无耻地伤害囚犯
2246 01:53:32 我诚恳万分地要求你们对他施以此等严重罪行所要求的苛刻且严厉的刑罚
2247 01:53:38 因为他们的行为给他们自身和他们的国家带来了羞愧 耻辱和伤害"
2248 01:53:41 —乔治·华盛顿